Interview téléphonique avec Richard Doty

Klass, P. J.: 8 janvier 1988

1. Il dit n'avoir pas pu joindre PJK ce weekend, ne sera pas dans la région, de retour jeudi/vendredi.

2. Il demande ce qu'il pourrait faire pour moi et je lui dis que je voulais lui faire commenter les allégations contre lui dans Just Cause et dans le journal du MUFON. Il dit qu'il a vu les 2.

Klass : Envisagez-vous d'entâmer une action ?

Doty : J'ai déjà entâmé une action. Un avocat a entâmé cet été une action en mon nom par rapport à l'allégation selon laquelle j'aurai fait filtrer ces documents Note de Klass : Mais cette allégation n'aurait pas (sic) été faite publiquement par Greenwood avant septembre 1987 et Greenwood, Gersten, Moore et quelques autres personnes étaient impliquées. Eh bien, j'ai une déclaration sous serment signée de Bill Moore qui a été faite en cour avec mon avocat présent qui dit que Bill Moore n'a jamais, jamais reçu quoi que ce soit d'autre que des petites choses sur un incident qui eut lieu à Kirtland en 1980 Klass doute que ceci ait pu avoir lieu dans les quelques mois après que les allégations aient été rendues publiques.

Il a donné dans la déclaration sous serment le nom de la personne dont il a reçu les documents, et cette personne -- je ne le connais pas -- cette personne est à Washington D.C. et mon avocat est allé à Washington D.C. et a parlé à cette personne qui a nié avoir jamais donné à Bill Moore quoi que ce soit bien que reconnaissant avoir eu des contacts réguliers avec Bill Moore Klass: Déclaration très douteuse.

Donc, supposément, Peter Gersten a eut cette information puis s'est excusé en disant qu'ils n'avaient jamais eu aucune information concrète que je lui aurait donné d'une quelconque manière, mais ils ont fait des sortes de déductions et ont pensé que cela devait venir de moi.

Klass : Vous dites que Moore a signé une déclaration sous serment. Avez-vous rendu cette déclaration publique ?

Doty : Non, non je ne l'ai pas fait.

Klass : Vous pensez le faire ?

Doty : Je ne sais pas. Ca dépend de l'avocat. Encore une fois, c'est arrivé l'année dernière et je n'ai plus eu d'autres contact avec les gens du MUFON ou du CAUS Il a plus tard changé cette version. Quand cet article est arrivé j'ai été innondé de coups de téléphone et de lettres et de gens qui essayaient de m'interviewer disant qu'ils voulaient savoir de quoi il retournait. Et je ne sais même pas, je ne savais pas, je n'avais pas vu ces documents avant octobre ou novembre Il fait référence aux documents MJ-12, qui ont été rendus publics pour la 1ère fois fin mai/début juin 1987.

Et j'y ai aussi jeté un oeil et dit, ils sont faux. (Rires) Ce ne sont même pas des documents crédibles. Ce qu'on m'a montré avait des documents légitimes en ce qu'ils ont été obtenus par FOIA mais ces autres-là qui ont été diffusés — apparemment Bill Moore released it in some kind of a news release.

Il a déclaré les avoir reçus Klass: En décembre 1984. Eh bien je n'étais même pas dans le pays, ni même quiconque avait accès à moi en 1984. Toutes ces choses ont démarré in the lawyer's — je n'arrive pas à me souvenir du terme légal qu'il a utilisé — but the court document refuting the claim that I gave him.

Klass : Accepteriez-vous de me donner le nom de votre avocat ?

Doty : Ah, je peux vous donner son nom. Mais pourquoi voudriez-vous savoir çà ?

Klass : (Explique que je suis un enquêteur sceptique sur les ovnis depuis longtemps, que si les documents MJ-12 étaient authentiques, ce serait l'histoire la plus énorme pour AW&ST. Et que donc j'ai creusé le sujet du MJ-12, et trouvé des éléments indiquant qu'il s'agit d'un canular.)

Doty : Oui, il suffit de les regarder. A fifth grader pourrait dire qu'ils ne sont pas classés de manière adéquate et down grade instructions. J'ai travaillé dans le classé secret pendant 20 ans, à tous les niveaux. Quand mon avocat m'en a montré des copies — et mon avocat est un militaire à la retraite — bien sûr, il aurait pu dire qu'ils étaient faux.

Apparemment l'équipe de Gersten savait qu'ils étaient faux.

Klass : (Explique que la vue prédominante au sein des croyants aux ovnis est que le MJ-12 est un canular, mais questionnent qui est responsable de leur production.)

Doty : Eh bien, le FBI le sait. Le FBI sait qui l'a fait. Cette information a été fournie au FBI, le FBI a interrogé cette personne et bien sûr cette personne a nié lui avoir donné (Moore). Mais je pense que ce que cette personne a fait est qu'elle a créé les documents — Je ne sais pas si Bill Moore était en fait impliqué dedans, je ne pense pas qu'il l'était, mais c'est une possibilité.

Le FBI ne l'a jamais poursuivi, je ne sais pas pourquoi, à moins qu'ils ne pouvaient simplement pas le faire. Je ne sais pas s'il y a eu une loi quelconque qui a été enfreinte par ce gars. Je ne sais pas si c'est public ou pas, mais vous devriez aller au FBI pour voir. Mais je sais avec certitude qu'ils l'ont interrogée — cette personne à Washington D.C.

Klass : Et quand est-ce que ça serait arrivé à peu près ?

Doty : Ah, gee, l'année dernière i.e. 1987

Klass : Comment le FBI aurait localisé cette personne à Washington — Je l'appelerai M. X.

Doty : En fait c'est comme ça que William Moore l'appelle, M. X.

Klass : Est-ce que vous suggérez que Moore a dit au FBI qui est X ?

Doty : Non. Pour vous dire la vérité je ne me souviens pas comment -- et je ne sais même pas if I was privvy (sic) cette information sur la manière dont le FBI a trouvé qui était ce gars, mais je pense qu'après que ces trucs soient sortis le Département de la Justice a enquêté dessus ou fait des instructions ou quelque chose comme çà et trouvé, je ne sais pas comment. Je n'ai pas cette information.

Klass soulève alors les allegations faites par le CAUS et lit la 1ère : En 1984, Linda Moulton Howe, qui produisit le film bien connu sur les mutilations de bétail Strange Harvest, fut contactée par une source governmentale Le CAUS identifie par la suite cette source comme Doty pour l'aider à produire un documentaire sur les ovnis, qui fournirait dans l'essentiel la solution des ovnis. Elle fut invitée par cette source, mise au courant sur l'histoire, puis contrainte au serment de secret en attendant la diffusion finale du film. L'affaire ne fut jamais menée à terme. De détails de l'histoire qui lui furent donnés match the MJ-12 tale, along with much extra detail about contacts with 'EBES' {{Extraterrestrial Biological Entities}}, Nordic type aliens called 'Highs' and conflicting alien factions."

Que pouvez-vous me dire sur votre contact avec elle ?

Doty : (Rires) OK. Dans le cadre de mes affectations, de mes affectations gouvernementales officielles, j'ai pris contact avec elle et je ne peux pas vous dire pourquoi. J'ai pris contact avec elle au sujet d'informations qu'elle avait et qu'elle voulait partager avec nous. Ces informations n'avaient rien à voir avec les ovnis, absolument rien à voir avec les ovnis Note de Klass : Howe est une productrice TV slightly wacky free-lance who focuses on UFOs, cattle mutilations, UFO-abductions, etc. --What kind of info would she have that Doty would seek "in an official" capacity--and which is so sensitive he could not tell me??

Lorsqu'elle a découvert que j'étais avec une agence gouvernementale et que j'étais le même qui avait enquêté sur l'incident (ovni de Kirtland) en 1980, elle a commencé à me poser des questions sur les onvis, sur ce que je pensais des ovnis, et quelles étaient mes croyances à leur sujet, et si je pouvais lui dire quoi que ce soit sur ce que le gouvernement avait. Et je lui ai dit, je ne sais pas grand chose. Je peux vous dire ce qui est arrivé à Kirtland, parce que j'ai enquêté dessus. On peut probablement l'expliquer.

Elle a dit qu'elle avait eu des liens avec Budd Hopkins et a number of people who claimed to have been abducted (by UFOs) and then she gives me this whole story about aliens abducting people, and they're called EBES, and then she said she had a contact--I later found out who it was--that had showed her some government documents pertaining to MJ-12 and all this other stuff.

But I never, ever originated any contact regarding UFOs with her. Because of our continuing interest in what she was doing--NOT UFOs but to something else--she would ask me questions like what do you think about this, what do you thing (sic) about that?

I can tell you that in 1985, excuse me in May, 1986, I TOOK AN EXTENSIVE POLYGRAPH EXAMINATION PERTAINING TO AN ALLEGATION SHE HAD MADE AND I PASSED IT, A GOVERNMENT ADMINISTERED POLYGRAPH, SHOWING I WAS THE ONE TELLING THE TRUTH AND SHE WAS THE ONE LYING.

Klass asks if Howe took a Polygraph test and he says no.

Doty : There was another person involved in this who took a polygraph test and failed it. That's why I say I know where she got the information from. Because this person REFUSED (??) AND QUIT GOVERNMENT SERVICE AT THE TIME. Anyway, she would sit down and talk to me for hours about UFOs, but she would do all the talking. She had everything already figured out. She claimed that well I know there's a ship FLYING ABOVE THE ARCTIC THAT ARE COLLECTING SOULS AND THERE'S ONLY A CERTAIN NUMBER OF SOULS AND THEY HAVE TO BE REGENERATED. JUST INCREDIBLE STUFF.
SHE BELIEVES ALL THESE ABDUCTEES...

I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH THE TWO GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, AND I HAVE NOTHING TO BACK THIS UP, STRICTLY UNOFFICIAL, BUT I WAS TOLD THAT THE GOVERNMENT AFTER HOPKINS WORTE HIS (first) BOOK, CALLED MISSING TIME, THAT THE GOVERNMENT WENT TO THESE PEOPLE (i.e. "abductees") AND ASKED THEM IF THEY WOULD PROVIDE THE SAME INFORMATION TO THE GOVERNMENT AND SOME OF THESE PEOPLE REPUDIATED WHAT THEY TOLD HOPKINS. NOW THAT'S WHAT I WAS TOLD.

Anyway, I never told her and showed her anything, except what we were doing on the other project. She just made that up, she exaggerated... she's jsut so hung up you can't talk about anything else (with her).

Klass : Then reads a second allegation: "CAUS Director, Peter Gersten, in a visit with a military intelligence source at Kirtland AFB in 1983 {{later identified as Doty}} was informed of a wide range of bizarre UFO stories. Included were comments on a briefing paper on UFOs for President Carter, the Cash/Landrum (incident) being a government exploitation of UFO technology- ...Bill Moore being 'right on' with Roswell (crashed saucer), and an admission that the original Project Acquarius (sic) cable (TWX) ...was retyped and not an original cable. This cable was the first mention anywhere of MJ-12 and Project Acquarius (sic)."

Doty : (Laughs) Gersten came out, I don't even remember when it was, and somebody from California, some television official from California. Gersten had spoke to me on the telephone several days before and said he'd like to get in touch with me about this 1980 Kirtland incident. So I agreed to meet with him.

And he sat there and asked me a number of questions about UFOs and I answered him LIKE I WAS TOLD TO ANSWER HIM. The meeting was official insofar as my capacity.

Klass : Do you have a tape recording of that meeting?

Doty : Oh oui.

Klass : Where would that be, in OSI files?

Doty : I can't disclose. I'm not going to comment on that. But when I confronted Peter Gersten some time later, after my attorney did, he shut right up, suspecting that it was recorded and knowing that he's lying. I told him if he wants to go to court--I told him in a telephone conversation I did--if you want to go to court, I've got the evidence to prove you wrong. And he just shut his mouth.

Now I'm not going to go into that because there's another aspect involved that I can't discuss. {{RCD FREQUENTLY IMPLIES THAT HE CANNOT DISCUSS SOMETHING BECAUSE OF SENSITIVITY, I.E. SECURITY.}} The only conversation I had with Gersten was RIGHT OUTSIDE A HOTEL. HE WANTED TO MEET ME ALONE, GETTING BACK TO THE CONVERSATION IN THE RESTAURANT. IT WAS STRICTLY HIM ASKING ME QUESTIONS AND ME DENYING THEM. "I don't know what you're talking about. No, I don't know about this, or that."

He asked me about the UFO in Texas that exploded and hurt somebody [PJK: The Cash-Landrum case]. I said I know nothing about that. HE was the one who said I understand it was a recovered alien craft, flown by the government--his source had told him that. I said, well, I don't know. {{PJK: Gersten was the lawyer for Ms. Cash and Ms. Landrum who sued USAF for $10 million for alleged injuries.}}

Anyways, he asked me, well I don't remember now. But he asked me a lot of questions but I never once provided, not one bit of information to him, or to anyone else. (laughs) Come on now, I wouldn't be fool enough to do that. Well, anyway he said he wanted to meet me later near his hotel where he was staying and I agreed with that. {{Strange behaviour if RCD could not or did not want to answer Gersten's questions.}} The coversation (sic) wasn't recorded.

He showed me a document that was allegedly a teletype message that was sent from ah, I think it was sent from Washington to OSI Detachment or district headquarters at Kirtland, I believe that was the routing. Any way, (sic) I looked at the document and said gee this is an inaccurate document. And he said, why? And I said, well in a classified document each paragraph is classified and in this document the paragraphs were not classified. The top marking said it was supposedly secret.

And he said, well read it, and I read it and said well it appears to me that somebody retyped this and typed this up. And
he said, do you think it's based on an actual document, and I said, well, I said, it could be based on an actual document but I'm not going to say it was. Now, years later, it was based on an actual document that was typed. However, SOMEBODY ADDED A LOT OF FABRICATION TO IT, A LOT OF JUNK TO IT.

Now, who I think did it is Richard Todd {{A UFOlogist in Penn. or N.J. who is active investigator using FOIA) ...He sent documents to the government which were forged and he said in his letter, these are forged documents, don't you think they're great. I mean they had all sorts of code words in them, unbelieveable. And I think that somebody provided some information to Todd or Gersten and then they exaggerated all the rest of it. Probably from the FOIA documents that were released in 1980, or whenever they were released.

So that was it. And then about a month later Gersten called me back and said HEY, CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME MORE INFORMATION. AND I SAID, NO I GAVE YOU--HE WANTED ME TO COMMENT MORE ON THE DOCUMENT, THE MJ-12 AND ACQUARIUS. AND THEN HE PROBABLY CALLED ME SEVERAL TIMES AFTER THAT BUT I NEVER HAD ANY, NEVER VOLUNTEERED ANY INFORMATION. I'M A PROFESSIONAL INTELLIGENCE PERSON AND I KNOW WHAT TO SAY AND WHAT NOT TO SAY, AND I CERTAINLY WOULDN'T TELL ANYBODY ANYTHING THAT WOULD GET ME IN TROUBLE.

Klass : Asks if he is due to retire soon.

Doty : Yes

Klass : What are you going to be doing then?

Doty : I have a business.

(Klass offers to reimburse him for this long-distance call)

Doty : I'd just as soon put this thing to rest, and I thought it was at rest once before. And I wouldn't even have spoke to you BECAUSE I HAVEN'T SPOKE TO ANY ONE ELSE {{CONTRADICTS EARLIER STATEMENT ABOUT MANY PHONE CALLS, INTERVIEWS}}

BUT A HIGH OFFICIAL WITHIN DOD CONTACTED ME AFTER I TALKED WITH GEORGE PEARCE AND SAID NO, I DON'T WANT TO TALK TO ANYBODY. BUT THIS OFFICIAL FROM DOD CONTACTED ME AND SAID THAT YOU (pjk) WERE LEGITIMATE AND YOU WOULD REBUT THESE, SO I SAID SURE, AS LONG AS HE'S GOING TO PRESS THE TRUTH AND NOT EXAGGERATE LIKE ALL THESE PEOPLE, I'LL BE HAPPY TO TALK TO HIM.

{{After this telcon, PJK called Col. David Shea, to thank him for calling RCD, only to be told that Shea did NOT talk to Doty, but to George Pearce--P.I.O. at Kirtland--SO CLEARLY RCD WAS NOT BEING FULLY TRUTHFUL IN ABOVE CLAIM--BUT TRYING TO MAKE HIMSELF SOUND IMPRESSIVE.}}

Klass : Asks for RCD's suspicions as to who composed MJ-12 documents. "What about Bill Moore"?

Doty : Non. I'VE HAD A NUMBER OF CONTACTS WITH HIM. TO TELL THE TRUTH, I DON'T THINK HE HAS THE KNOWLEDGE TO DO THAT. Now he could probably have helped.

I KNOW SOME THINGS THAT YOU DON'T — THE GOVERNMENT I SHOULD SAY — KNEW SOME THINGS ABOUT HIM THAT MAYBE OTHER PEOPLE DON'T KNOW, THAT WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT I DON'T THINK HE WOULD DO IT. NOW THAT'S MY FEELING. MAYBE HE DID, I DON'T KNOW.

Je pense qu'un individu au sein de la DIA qui est un bon ami de Emmeneger — vous connaissez un gars nommé Emmeneger... c'est quelqu'un qui a écrit un livre sur un incident à Holloman en 1964 — il l'a écrit en 1972 ou 1973 — un ovni aurait prétendumment atterri à la base aérienne de Holloman — et cet Emmeneger a écrit un livre et il l'aurait basé sur des informations qui lui aurait été fournies par des responsables de la DIA à Washington. Je n'ai jamais lu le livre...

Klass : Qui l'incident est supposé avoir eu lieu ?

Doty : En 1964. L'incident de la base Air Force de Holloman où un ovni aurait atterri droit sur la base et piloté jusque dans un hangar et où le commandant de la base et tout le monde serait sorti et aurait rencontré les extraterrestres. Emmeneger aurait été autorisé à voir des documents hautement classés au Pentagone à propos de cet incident et a alors écrit un livre dessus — 1973 ou 1974.

Klass : Mais pourquoi les auraient-ils envoyés Les documents MJ-12 à Jamie Shandera ?

Doty : Qui ?

Klass : Personne dans le mouvement ovni n'a jamais entendu parler de Jamie Shandera.

Doty : Qui ?

Klass : Shandera est le gars qui aurait reçu les documents MJ-12 sur une pellicule non développée de film 35 mm.

Doty : Well, I don't know him. {{PJK believes he is telling truth, based on his reactions above--unless RCD is a clever actor.}} That's probably just a name that Moore uses. Is this guy an actual person?

Klass : Yeah, I've met him. He's a TV producer in southern california. (PJK explores why film was sent to Shandera instead of Moore.)

Doty : My gut feeling, but don't quote me, my gut feel is that THOSE (MJ-12) DOCUMENTS WERE ORIGINATED BY A PERSON WITHIN DIA AND THAT THEY WERE SENT TO MOORE OR TO WHOMEVER THIS OTHER GUY IS, IN ORDER TO DISCREDIT THEM.

MY PERSONAL FEELING IS THAT IT WAS A GOVERNMENT OPERATION. (i.e. government disinformation) I WASN'T INVOLVED IN IT. But it was a government operation.

Klass (plays devil's advocate to challenge his theory)

Doty : Well, maybe Mr. X thought it was such a good piece of forgery that Moore--without ever having been in government service or the military--wouldn't recognize it (as a forgery). And they would be so fascinating to Moore

Klass : Then goes into anomaly in the date format used in MJ-12 briefing document--same curious format used by William Moore.

Doty : Well, you're seeing things that I didn't see. Maybe he did do it.

Klass then offered to send him copy of my upcoming article in Skeptical Inquirer, and he expressed interest:

Klass asked for mailing address and RCD gave military address, not home address:

Richard C. Doty
1606 SVS/SVF
Kirtland AFB, N.M. 87117

When Klass asked: "and is that Master Sergeant," there was a long pause and he answered "yeah, you can put Master Sergeant."

Klass : My advice to you would be that I think that you or your lawyer ought to write a letter to CAUS or to the MUFON UFO Journal and ask that it be published, denying those things that you feel you should deny.

Doty : OK Well, see, we did that. We wrote to the publishers of the newsletters {{Note PLURAL--yet MUFON report just came out about a week ago.}} but they didn't publish em.

Klass : Well, if you did that, I would very much like to get a copy. In other words, if you wrote it, intending for it to be made public, then there certainly is no reason for it to be kept secret.

Doty : OK, what's your address.

Klass : Supplied same.

Doty : Yeah, I'll be more than happy to send you a, I'll dig 'em up.

(Don't hold your breath until they arrive.)

When Klass asks if he will stay in Albuquerque after he retires, he said he will stay in New Mexico, explains he went to school out here and his father is ex-military.

When PJK asks if his father was in Army or AF, he replies:

RCD: Air Force, and he had something to do with Blue Book, too.

Klass : Tell me more about that.

Doty : Well, he was an investigator for Blue Book, he was at Holloman from 1962 to 1966, four years. He was involved in the Lonnie Zamora case {{1964 "UFO landing"" at Socorro}}. Edward Doty, if you've ever seen any documents you'll see his name on it.

Klass : Is he still alive?

Doty : Yes, he's still alive. But he doesn't talk about it. The ironic thing, we were at Holloman, living, in 1964 and if anyone would have known about the landing of that spacecraft, my Dad would have, and he says baloney, nothing like that ever happened.

Klass : Again invited him to send me the telephone bill and I would pay for it.