Int. : ...Alan Keath. Always impressed with somebody on the Internet. Yeah.

Chop : She ah, she lives here, couple, a couple blocks down the street.

Int. : We're on ? Oui. Beaucoup de gens savent dans quoi vous avez été impliqué. Comme vos premières études et que vous avez servi pendant la guerre. Est-ce que vous �tiez dans les Marines pendant la guerre ? O� avez-vous grandit ? O� avez-vous fait vos études ?

Chop : O� j'ai fait mes- . Je suis all� � l'Universit� de Dayton de nuit pendant 2 ans.

Int. : Ah ; je suppose que vous avez grandit dans l'Ohio ?

Chop : L'Ohio. Dayton, dans l'Ohio. A l'époque j'�tais reporter pour le Daily News de Dayton. Et j'allais aller à l'�cole de nuit à l'Universit� de Dayton. Et j'y suis all� pendant 2 ans, et puis j'ai rencontr� ma femme, et j'ai arrêt� d'aller en cours.

Int. : Oh, oui ? (rieur)

Chop : J'ai commencé à sortir avec elle, c'était il y a 63 ans, 64 ans de cela. Nous sommes mari�s depuis 60, 64 ans maintenant. Ca fait longtemps. C'est toute une vie.

Int. : Votre famille est toujours en Ohio ?

Chop : Ma- ?

Int. : Vous avez toujours de la famille ici ?

Chop : Non. Mon, mes, les gens sont morts quand j'avais, euh, ma m�re est morte quand j'avais 5 ans, et mon p�re est mort quand j'en avais 12. Et il y avait, j'avais 3 soeurs, dont 1 est morte il y a de nombreuses années. Elle est morte après, après avoir eu un enfant. Et il restait 2 soeurs et moi. Et nous sommes rest�s ensemble jusqu'� mes 17 ans à peu près. Et puis je suis parti et que j'ai obtenu un travail de vente de magazines dans 3 ou 4 �tats du Midwest. Et j'ai eu un autre job à l'Exposition de Cleveland, qui a juste dur� l'�t� où s'est tenue l'Exposition. Et puis j'ai suivi des cours de photographie à l'�cole, et j'ai d�croch� un job au D�partement de T�l�-Photo du Cleveland News, qui n'existe plus aujourd'hui. Et au d�partement de t�l�-photo pendant oh, peut-être 3 ou 4 ans. Et j'ai été transfer� à Dayton. Et par la suite j'ai �cris des histoires pour le journal. Et finalement ils m'ont engag� comme reporter.

Int. : Ah.

Chop : Et c'est comme �a que je suis entr� dans le journalisme. Et j'ai travaill� pour eux jusqu'� ce que j'aille dans le Corps des Marines ; ce qui devait être vers 1943. Je suis sorti en '46.

Int. : O� �tiez-vous bas� pendant cette période ?

Chop : J'�tais bas� à Washington, D.C. J'�tais affecté aux Correspondants de Combat avec la 1^�re Brigade Sp�ciale des Marines. Et puis j'ai été transf�r� à San Francisco. J'�tais parti pour Iwo Jima. Je ne le savais pas à l'époque, mais c'est l� que, le groupe avec lequel j'�tais, est allà. Mais à la dernière minute j'ai été transfer� à San Francisco pour r�diger un programme radio que je n'ai jamais fait. Mais on avait une station sur laquelle le Corps des Marines faisait un programmede 15 mn 1 fois par semaine pour eux. Et j'ai re�u l'affectation de faire ce programme 1 fois par semaine. Et dans les 6 mois où j'ai fait ce boulot, il y a eu 9 stations qui reprenaient le programme quand je suis parti ; 9 stations sur la c�te ouest. Juste des choses générales sur le Corps des Marine, ce que nous faisons et comment nous le faisons et ce genre de choses. Voyons, j'ai quit� le Corps des Marines, et je suis parti pour Cleveland, en Ohio. Ah, et je suis all� dans la publicité avec la compagnie appel�e Fuller, Smith & Ross, qui est toujours en activité. Une des, la plus grande des agences de publicité industrielle du pays.

Int. : Hmm-mm.

Chop : Ils avaient des bureaux à New York, Chicago, et Cleveland, Cleveland étant le bureau principal. Et j'ai travaill� sur divers comptes, �crivant des copies de pubs, dont Westinghouse, les peintures Sherman Williams, la Eden Rubber Company, divers comptes différents. Et je n'avais pas un intérêt particulier pour la publicité. Et donc je suis revenu à Dayton l� où j'avais travaill� au Daily News. Je ne voulais pas revenir aux News, mais je suis alors all� travailler pour l'Air Force. Ils avaient un poste ouvert dans section presse. Et j'�tais -- 6 mois plus tard -- j'�tais promu Directeur de la section presse.

Int. : Hmm-mm.

Chop : Et c'est l� que j'ai -

Int. : C'est du côté de Wright-Pat, c'est �a ?

Chop : Pardon?

Int. : C'est à Patterson ?

Chop : Oui, à Wright-Patterson.

Int. : Ok.

Chop : C'est comme �a que j'ai été impliqué dans, dans les ovnis.

Int. : Oui.

Chop : En tant que Directeur de la section presse, on recevait des deamndes de différent journaux et magazines au sujet des ovnis. Et j'�tais en contact avec l'ATIC, qui était basically for housekeeping purposes of part of Air Materiel Command, qui était Dayton, Ohio, à Wright Field. Et quand nous avions des demandes, je contactais les gens de l'ATIC. Ils me donnaient des réponses avec beaucoup de r�ticence, qui n'étaient pas très satisfaisantes, mais j'ai bien été impliqué dans les ovnis à cette époque.

Int. : Qui faisait des demandes ? Qui demandait des choses sur les ovnis ?

Chop : Les journaux, certains journaux. Chaque fois que quelqu'un faisait une observation that was in St. Louis, it'd be the St. Louis paper that called and say, "Give us some information on a sight-. We had a sighting so and so, and what do you know about it?"

Int. : Donc l'ATIC n'avait pas de bureau de presse ou quelque chose comme �� ?

Chop : N'avait pas quoi ?

Int. : Un bureau de presse ?

Chop : Non, ils n'avaient pas de - . Ils avaient eu le projet Sign, et le projet Grudge, mais il n'avaient pas, il n'y avait, il n'y avait pas de Blue Book à l'époque. Et ils ne donnaient pas beaucoup d'informations. Par exemple, quand Bob Ginna de Life Magazine est arrivé, ah, il est venu �, �, mon bureau, et je l'ai amen� à l'ATIC. Il avait pris des arrangements pour, pour faire quelque chose pour le magazine Life magazine l�-bas. Et euh, donc je l'ai amen� l�-bas et l'ai prèsent� aux gens de l'ATIC qui lui ont par la suite donn� l'information qu'il a publié. Ah, et la chose d'après, il y a euh, le magazine Look qui voulait faire la m�me chose. Donc ils ont envoy� - ils ont lu le truc de Life -- et donc ils voulaient envoyer un bonhomme, aussi !

Int. : Oui.

Chop : Je ne me souviens pas du nom du gars qui est arrivé, mais le, du journaliste, mais euh, je l'ai amen� l�-bas et ai suivi la m�me routine. De cette manière, j'ai commencé à recevoir des demandes et réponses sur les ovnis. Personellement, je ne croyais rien sur les ovnis. Je pensais que c'était un ramassis de conneries. Mais le, mon travail, mon job ; je devais prendre en -, répondre à ce qu'ils voulaient savoir. Et j'ai pu avoir, juste eu mes informations de l'ATIC. Alors nous avons eu, on recevait des observations bien sûr, dont j'entendais parler mais dont la presse n'était pas proche. Nous avons eu une observation que je connais. Nous avons re�u l'information, à notre bureau que des gens du général Mills étaient impliqués avec l'Air Force et leur contrat pour suivre des ballons m�t�o. Le euh, j'ai oubli� comment ils les appelaient. Skyhook -

Int. : Des ballons Skyhook, oui.

Chop : Et euh, ils would release a balloon. And if they're in Minnesota, and ah, I'm trying to remember, been a long time ago.

Int. : Charlie Moore ?

Chop : J'essaierai.

Int. : Charles Moore ?

Chop : Pardon ?

Int. : Charles Moore ?

Chop : Non, je ne sais pas quels étaient les noms des gars. Il y en avait 2. This was tracking this balloon.

Int. : Joe Kaliszewski ?

Chop : Pardon ?

Int. : Joe Kaliszewski.

Chop : Je ne, je ne me souviens pas des noms. Je ne peux vraiment pas. Ca fait, ca fait, 50, plus de 50 ans. La seule chose que je sais, c'est que c'était des gens du général Mills. Et ils avaient ce ballon up there, and tracking with a theodolite and were scanning a camera on it. And they said that saw this object come down from the altitude above the balloon and make a pass at the balloon. And when they retrieved the balloon, they had an eight foot rent in, in the side. Well, that got me to thinking. Ah, there's a lot to this that, that we don't know about. And ah, subsequently, things went on like that. I got transferred to the Pentagon.

Int. : Quelle, c'était quelle année ?

Chop : This was in 19-, I believe it was 1950 or '51.

Int. : Let me, let me ask you this one. While you were with A. M. C. , who -- when you went over to A.T.I.C., -- who did you talk to? Who were, who were you talking to over at A.T.I.C.?

Chop : I can't recall their names, but whoever they were, if I, If I heard their names I can, I probably remember them.

Int. : Comme James Rogers ?

Chop : Pardon ?

Int. : James Rogers ?

Chop : No-o-o, le nom du gars commen�ait par un "R".

Int. : Rose, Rosengarten ? Non ?

Chop : Non.

Int. : Roy James ?

Chop : Pardon?

Int. : Le euh, gars du radar, Roy James ?

Chop : It could be, it could be. I don't recall.

Int. : Harold Watson?

Chop : Really, I don't, I don't really recall. I did talk to some of the people who were pretty high up, full colonels and ah, majors.

Int. : How about Colonel Harold Watson.

Chop : No, I don't, I wouldn't recall the name. You got to remember, it's more than fifty years ago. And I'm 83, and I don't have the best of memory like any more. (laughter) but ah, anyway, I use to go there quite a bit. Whenever we had a query from a newspaper, I had to go over there and see if they got any information for me. At that time in 1951, Colonel Searles wanted me to come over to the Pentagon to take over a position of the Air Force Press Desk. Mainly because I was cognizant of how the Air Force bought things, like toilet seats. And I could, I knew where to go, to go get the information that the press people wanted. They wanted to know the cost of a certain item. I knew where, how to get the infor-, get the information. And I knew who was handling different things. And that's what Colonel Searles needed at the Pentagon because he would get the questions there from, from the press. And he'd pick up the phone and call me, and I got talking to him most every day. And finally he said that ah, "Gee Al, I want you to come over and work for me at the Pentagon. " So I went over to the Pentagon. My assignment was mostly questions of material. Was the Air Force was buying and why, and how much it costs. And whatever the press wanted to know. Then we had a lot of UFO sightings that got involved in that, that the Air Force was involved in. And people were talking about UFOs all over, all over the world - I mean in different Air Force bases. Somebody on the West Coast, some major or colonel, would make a statement on UFOs, and, and somebody else would say something on East Coast. And they'd be diametrically opposed to what they were saying. So ah, the -- I think it was a general -- the general who was in charge of Intelligence-

Int. : Le général Samford ?

Chop : Pardon ?

Int. : Samford ?

Chop : Samford, le général Samford. Le général Samford got disgusted with people talking about UFOs in various parts of the country. So he talked to my boss who was General- . I distinctly -

Int. : Sory Smith ?

Chop : Pardon ?

Int. : Sory Smith ?

Chop : Sory Smith. He talked to Sory Smith, and Sory Smith talked to Colonel Searles [Lt.Col. Dewitt R. Searles], who was my boss. And Colonel, Colonel said, "I, I, just got the guy. You want one voice for UFOs. " He said, "I got the guy, he has experience with us in Dayton at Wright-Patterson. And I'd like to give him the assignment. " That's how I got involved with it. And I said, "Oh, no!" (laughter) "Here we go again!" You know.

INT: Yeah, and, and at that time, you were skeptical about the whole phenomena?

Chop : I sure was! I didn't have any weeping for UFOs. I didn't believe in them. Well, I had some concern because of that balloon sighting. And as I got involved with them, with, with Dewey Fournet, I went out on a, on a couple of sightings with him, people who had seen these things. And the more I got, got involved with UFOs, the more I began to think that is a lot to this that we don't know.

INT: Yeah. So, so you were appointed then? So you moved to Washington?

Chop : Well, I moved to Washington, yes, for several reasons. Like I said, for, for answering questions on material.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : I had to do with purchasing!

INT: Yeah, but I mean, at that point you moved to the Press Desk, at the Pentagon?

Chop : To the Pentagon?

INT: Yeah.

Chop : Yeah. I was in the Pentagon then.

INT: Yeah. Ruppelt thought that you had been transferred over for the specific purpose of covering UFOs.

Chop : That's not true!!

INT: So it was later that you got the UFOs?

Chop : That's right! That's right! I was transferred over there specifically because Colonel Searles wanted somebody there who was familiar with the perfintive arm of the Air Force. And because they, you remember the Korean war was on, the Korean war. And we had a lot of questions about the Air Force material. How much we were spending for this and that and the other things.

INT: Yeah. Can you, ah, tell us a little bit of what you heard about a, UFOs, while you were still at Dayton?

Chop : Well, I, I try to, to one thing I was telling you about the, the material, the ah, the a -

INT: General Mills?

Chop : General Mills people --

INT: Yeah.

Chop : There were things like that.

INT: Were, were you sort of looking over the shoulders of those guys? Those sign guys, at the time? For broader, I mean, were you working in the same vicinity as, as ah, as ah, UFO Project Officers?

Chop : No, they're right in the next building. I was at Headquarters, our Gen-, Commanding General at that time was ah - . . Gee, I'll think of it later.

INT: General Chidlaw?

Chop : Mm-hmm! Benjamin Chidlaw.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : And I was his Press Chief. So I had about four or five people in the press room at Wright-Patterson. And ah, and I was working specifically for General Chidlaw. I didn't have, get involved in too many UFOs. But I'm not, maybe once a week or so. We get a sighting, ah, request for information on it. Most of the time, we, we get requests for information that we didn't have any information on. A sighting that might -- especially from the lay people -- we get people, for example, somebody in St. Louis would report that they saw a UFO flying over St. Louis. And ah, and we didn't know anything about it. And neither did A.T.I.C., because it came from a lay person.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : The only sightings that the A.T.I.C. took cognizance of -- took very seriously -- were reports from our own pilots or someone who is educated, ah, to under-, understand what he sees in, in the air. Like an astronomer, engineer, pilots, ah, and those were the ones we were involved with at that time. I didn't think much of them. I was very skeptical. When I was a kid, I remember reading an awful lot of a magazine called Amazing Stories. It was very popular when I was, ah, maybe 10 years old. I was always reading that kind of stuff. I was interested in it, but I never thought I'd see the day when, when I'd get involved with it! (laughter)

INT: Yeah. (laughter)

Chop : But anyway, I, I, I landed in the Pentagon and found out I was assigned to UFOs again! (laughter) and, and -

INT: Let me ask you about the ah, June 1947, when pilot Kenneth Arnold had the first flying saucer sighting made the news. Remember what kind of reactions there were at ah, Wright Field?

Chop : Ah, wait a minute, as a matter of fact, I wasn't. I was still writing advertising copy in Cleveland when Ken, Kenneth Arnold made his sighting. Although I did read about it, and I was amazed, you know, that what he saw. My first encounter with UFOs was around 1950, '50, '51 when I was working with A.T.I.C. I was going over to A.T.I.C. and getting information from them. I talked to a lot of the people, a lot of the pilots, a lot of our scientists there. And some of them took it pretty seriously -- took the reports pretty seriously. So as I talk to those type of people, I began to think there was a lot to this subject. It interested me. I began to think there's, ah, could be something here.

INT: Do you remember Donald Keyhoe's True Magazine article that came out in December of '49? And how that impacted Air Materiel Command? The flight officers?

Chop : I, I remember the article. I don't remember, I don't remember the article in detail. I don't remember. I couldn't tell you what it was about anymore. I was accused many times of feeding Keyhoe information. But you got to remember, Don Keyhoe spent 100% of his time worrying about, worrying about and studying them, and asking questions about UFOs. While the rest of the press, maybe once in six months they say something about UFOs. But Don Keyhoe was at my desk three times a week!

INT: (laughter)

Chop : And he used to bug the hell out of me! He sometimes, I'd come to work and he'd be in my chair! Waiting for me! (laughter) And he did spend 100% of his time on this. So you know, naturally he's going to get more information than somebody who's taking, just taking a cursory look at it. I didn't give, didn't favor him with anything. Except he was just smart, he's a smart cookie he, and subscribed to a, a, what do you call it? a clipping service?

INT: Clipping service.

Chop : Had to do with any, any sighting in the United States, he had a hand, he was there! He had it, he had the information that was, that would appear in the local press, and he'd come and ask about it. Many times, I didn't have anything to give him. I'd say, we never heard of it! Well evidently, he showed me this, this, piece in the paper, and I'd say, "well, call the paper. I mean, I don't have anything on it! I'll ask A. T. , I'll ask Blue Book. I'll, I'll call Ruppelt and see if he's got anything on it. But the, frankly, this is first we heard of it!" That happened many times. But he was there all the time. That was his number one project in life! And they had, there was some weird people there. Keyhoe was a pretty smart cookie. He was a very intelligent person. And he was, ah, he stuck to his guns I would say, all the way through.

INT: Let, let me ask you this as a practical question about, sort of day to day activities when you, you know, at the Press Desk. I mean when you came in in the morning, what, how did your day go? You know, what was a normal day?

Chop : Well, we at the press desk, we had maybe 8 or 10 people. Each had a different assignment. Any queries that came in from the press would fall into a category that certain person handled. And it would be their responsibility to get the answers for. And I had the responsibility for, well, Materiel and Air Force bases worldwide. Anything that had to do with an Air Force base, overseas or Z.I. -- zone interior -- it would come to me if it had to do with an Air Force base, or Materiel. And then I got the third assignment, which was UFO. That was three things. And my day would go on, would be, i'd be digging out information for how much a toilet seat cost, or something, (laughter) you know. And why we paid thirteen dollars for something, they claim, was worth about 25 cents. As the press claims that's so, that's where my days would go.

INT: That's true?

Chop : No, well you're, you're, you talking about a certain bolt that had to be-, have certain specifications that would go into an aircraft. And look the same as a bolt you could buy at the hardware store, but certainly the molecular structure was not the same.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : So you know the Air Force buys things on the bid, the lowest bidder, provided the article meets specifications. They're not spending the taxpayers money willy-nilly.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : But the, you got to satisfy the press.

INT: Yeah. Did you get the, your reports from only Ruppelt to give to the press on UFOs? Were you allowed to get information from others beside Ruppelt?

Chop : My, the routine was, was really, I would go through, through Dewey Fournet.

INT: Let's, let's talk about that. What was your relationship with Dewey?

Chop : Dewey was in the branch of intelligence that was involved with UFOs at the Pentagon, upstairs. I was downstairs in the press room. And Ed Ruppelt was in Dayton. And between the three of us, if I got an inquiry, I would either contact Dewey or if I couldn't get ahold of him, I called Ed Ruppelt. I talked to Ruppe-, to Dewey first, because Dewey was my first base. And a-

INT: Were you essentially under Dewey?

Chop : No, I didn't work for Dewey. I wasn't assigned to him at all. I worked for Col., Colonel Searles.

INT: Right.

Chop : But I was in contact with the press. Dewey was not! He was with the Current Intelligence. Ah, they had -- as I got it -- Current Intelligence had to do with ah, anything that appeared to be a threat to the United States, such as a sighting of a submarine off the coast of Maine or something. And ah, of course I wasn't involved with things like that, but Dewey would be. Yet he was involved with anything that appeared to be a threat to the United States, be it a submarine or airplane, or airplanes or missiles, or whatever. And part of it was UFOs, which ah, was my baby with the press. So I would get my information from Dewey. If Dewey didn't have the information, he would get it from Ed Ruppelt. And if Ed Ruppelt didn't have it, the Air Force hadn't got it!

INT: Uh-ha. Okay.

Chop : That's the way it was.

INT: Was there anyone else at Wright Field or Wright-Pat, that ah you could approach besides Ruppelt? If Ruppelt wasn't, wasn't there, if he was on vacation or on another assignment?

Chop : It would be Dewey. No, not at Wright Field. No, if Ed Ruppelt wasn't there, if he was on vacation, it would always be my recourse, would be Dewey. Dewey was my first base. Every time anything that came up, if I didn't have the answer, I'd get it from Dewey.

INT: What was your ah, security clearance?

Chop : Top Secret.

INT: Top Secret? Do you remember, was it a Colonel Adams? Is that right?

Chop : Colonel Adams. I, I know who he was. He was working, specifically over Dewey.

INT: Uh-hmm, okay.

Chop : I had no direct contact with him.

INT: How about Colonel Weldon Smith, who was over Dewey?

Chop : No, I didn't. Neither did he. I had, my, my contacts, whole contacts with Ed Ruppelt. Which is what I called Current Intelligence, was with Dewey.

INT: So he was in Current Intelligence Branch?

Chop : Pardon?

INT: He was in the Current Intelligence Branch?

Chop : Yes.

INT: And then the Branch Chief was Colonel Weldon Smith?

Chop : Right.

INT: And then, ah, over Weldon Smith was Colonel Adams who was the -

Chop : Yes, I knew who he was. But I, I had no contact with him. In other words, I wouldn't have called Colonel Adams because I had Dewey.

INT: Right.

Chop : Dewey was assigned to answer anything I asked him.

INT: Okay. Let's take a break for just a second to switch tapes.

Chop : Okay.

Chop : The sequence of, of how we got involved in that.

INT: Oh, you want to hold that thought.

Chop : Pardon? You're going to get on that. Okay. This is not, this is not accurate.

INT: Okay. Go ahead. Okay. You're going to tell me.

Chop : You want to go, where?

INT: I'm okay. Now, you just want to continue that thought you just had.

Chop : Oh, this thing. Um, I got a call that night from Ray Nathan, who was the information officer for the FA-, Federal FAA, Federal Aeronautics Administration. He was the information man. And he, in his capacity, got word from the people at Washington National that they had these UFOs on radar. This was at midnight. This was me, called me at midnight. I remember it was midnight because I looked at the clock, and I thought it was a hell of a time for somebody to get, you know, get me out of bed. Ray said they were having these sightings on radar, and that there were a lot of press people there. And he didn't know what to do, so I would please come down and take care of the situation. As of course he knew that was my assignment. So I called Dewey Fournet, and told him. As to my best of my recollection, I got the word. I called Dewey, and Dewey came down, but stopped to pick up this radar expert.

INT: Lt. Holden?

Chop : Right. That's why I got there before Dewey. Because, I immediately went down, after I talked to Dewey. [Is that our phone?]

INT: Yes it is.

Chop : [She got it. ] All right. Ah, so anyway that's, that's, that's how I got down there ahead of Dewey. And Ed Ruppelt was, you know, in Dayton, Ohio. So naturally he couldn't come there. But I think if Ed Ruppelt had been there that night, he would have changed his mind about UFOs.

INT: What was that, his attitude that you think needed to be changed?

Chop : Well, just the sequence of events. The fact that these things were so clear on radar. And the guy that the Colonel, that Dewey bought with him, declared that as far as he was concerned, those were real objects up there. No ground clutter or nothing. And the fact that when, when we had an intercept come in, and those things vanished the, the very, very, instance that we, we could see the planes coming in on the radar scope. And the minute we saw the beginning of these guys, UFOs just disappeared. They just left. And these planes hung around, we sent one up north, one down south, different parts of Washington, nobody saw anything. So they finally said they [are] going go back to base, to Newcastle. So they, we could see them go on off on the scope, and the minute they got off the scope, bang! Here's the UFOs again! You know, and I, I was, I was very apprehensive about that! I, in fact, was scared! I don't mind telling you this, it scared me! It was frightening! And I think everybody in the room was that very apprehensive!

INT: Why? Why was it frightening?

Chop : Pardon?

INT: Why were you frightened? Why was everyone apprehensive?

Chop : Becau-, because of what ah, happened. I mean, the fact that the-, obviously whatever these things were had intelligence enough to get out of the area when they had an intercept going in. They had to be intelligently controlled.

INT: So, so that was the thing that got you?

Chop : The first thing that got me -- the thing I think that got me -- was when they, they went off the scope! These things came back! Then and now, I really-

INT: So now they're playing a game with you?

Chop : (laughter) Well, there was a, a game that, that frightened me! And I think everybody in that room was very apprehensive because we looked at each other. We didn't know what to do. And about three hours later, when we got the second intercept up, and sent one guy up round the north part of the city, he didn't see anything. But Paterson, down in the other quadrant down here, flew right into the middle of four of them, and he actually said, "They're closing in on me! What shall I do?" Well, what the hell is he going, "what shall I do?" Well, what the hell is he going, what'll I'm going to tell him? What was I going to tell him? I'm a civilian. I'm not going to tell an Air Force pilot to fire at that damn thing or anything! What I didn't say anything! Nobody said anything! And all of a sudden, these things began to move away from him. And he said, "they gone!" And the next minute or two, he said, "I'm returning to base." And he did. Well, he went off to, back to Newcastle, and these things hung around all night long! Till about 4:30 or 5 in the morning. I talked to Lt. Paterson, I was, I wrote down, air to ground conversations between the, the, the controllers, the radar controllers and, and, and the pilot. I didn't-, we didn't get anything from one pilot. But Paterson - I wro-, I wrote down all our conversations with him. And I told him, I said I got to that point where I said I was going to write a report to command post about what happened that night, to the Air Force command post at the Pentagon. And I said I'm going delete that question, "What shall I do?" Well, evidently he let it go himself, because I didn't sneak that into my report. And of course, that, that, that question, I didn't -- "What shall I do?" -- I didn't put into the report. But I did file a report. I went back to the Pentagon, six o'clock in the morning and wrote down sequence of the air/ground conversations, and sent it over to the head, to the command post. And I went home and went to bed. And he said, "I can't deny that I said that," he said, "You know, if you re, if you're, if, if you're flying in the pitch dark, flying at six hundred miles an hour, and you witness what I witness, he said, "You're liable to say anything. " That was his response.

INT: Meaning, how did you interpret that statement?

Chop : But he, he didn't care whether, you know, somebody said, that he said "What shall I do?" I, you know, simple to say. You, you know, liable to say anything in-, when you're in that kind of a situation.

INT: Was that because it was a, frightening or threatening situation?

Chop : For sure!

INT: Yeah. So he admitted that he was scared?

Chop : Yeah, well you-

INT: He didn't know what was out there with?

Chop : Pardon?

INT: He didn't know what he was out there with?

Chop : No, he didn't know. He didn't know what was, what the objects were. He, all he knew, they were there, and ah, that's what convinced me. I'm convinced that these objects do appear, and we don't know exactly what they are. Neither does the Air Force, unless they know and, and aren't telling me!

INT: Yeah.

Chop : But the, I'm convinced they're solid objects. I'm convinced that there, they're probably from another planet, from Outer Space somewhere. I always felt that way since that night. And I can't help but feel that way. I think if anybody who went through it like I do, would feel the same way.

INT: Yeah. Yeah. What were be the reactions, the next day?

Chop : Reactions?

INT: Inside the Air Force and the defense departments?

Chop : Well, they were, they were all concerned about what had happened. Nobody had any answers, and they were all floundering for an answer, and that's why General Samford, had the press conference. But at the press conference see, intimated that radar could pick up ground clutter and no doubt that this was probably temperature inversion and ah -- kiss it off that way. But there wasn't any temper-, temperature inversion. Ah, that was his response to a query that could be an answer. But I don't believe that was the answer. Because, I seen temperature inversion on radar. And doesn't look anything like that. These things are, these things are just as solid, a, a return as you get from an, an actual flight. They look the same. The only differences that they moved, ah, probably at speeds that the aircraft can't make. Because they would jump sometimes an whole inch, one sweep of the radar sweep. They were holding.

INT: You think they were moving fast?

Chop : Oh boy!!!

INT: Faster than anything near the planes?

Chop : They were moving real fast when they jumped ah, one inch, I'll tell you.

INT: Why? How many miles? What were a normal plane look-like?

Chop : Normal plane would look like it's in the same spot. When they moving very slow, I think maybe five sweeps for it to move an inch, or maybe ten sweeps. But these were instantaneous.

INT: At, at one point during that time, the press was ordered to leave. Can you kind of, explain that situation?

Chop : Did the press what?

INT: Was ordered to leave the room. Control-

Chop : Because we were about to have an intercept. And far as I was concerned, I had no authority to let then stay. You got to look at it from that standard.

INT: So you guys were convinced that these things, that you're going to have some kind of contact?

Chop : That's right! We're going to have an intercept. And we can see it coming, and ah, and I didn't have the authority to let them stay. That's all. It's very simple. I loo-, I did let them come in and see the radarscope, and see the unknown objects. But when I had the intercept, I made them leave. And ah, Life magazine advised me that I wouldn't have a job the next day!

INT: Life magazine?

Chop : Pardon?

INT: Life magazine?

Chop : Yeah.

INT: What they have to say about it? Oh, I see.

Chop : They were, they were, they were, they were, pissed off! (laughter) and then the next thing I heard them, I, told, let's see. He's going call my boss, he said. I said, "I'll get him for you on the phone." So I got Colonel, Colonel Searles out of bed. And I told him what was going, and the last thing I heard that, that Life magazine say, you won't have a job either! That was it! (laughter)

INT: To Searles!?!

Chop : Yeah. So I didn't pay any attention to that. Then I said, "Fine." I said, "Great, you can have the job!!" (laughter)

INT: Well, were you, were you involved in, in any of the set-ups or preparations for General Samford briefing?

Chop : General what?

INT: Were you involved in preparations for General Samford press conference?

Chop : No, except to ah, except to a, alert the press that we were going to have a press conference. Yeah.

INT: Did, did, was there a briefing for the press before the actual conference? Kind of a background briefing?

Chop : No.

INT: No. Did you know another curious thing is: Ruppelt was not in Washington at that time.

Chop : He was not.

INT: Ah.

Chop : He came the next day!

INT: He came the next day?

Chop : Right! That's when I say, "If he had been there."

INT: Was he called up? Was he called up and, and, and asked to come? Or, at that time? Or?

Chop : I don't know what happened between him and Dewey. Ah, that would be between them. I didn't talk to Ed Ruppelt that night.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : Ah, Ed was there, ah, the next day. He was there the day of the press briefing. But ah, but he wasn't there the night of the sighting.

INT: Yeah, that seems kind of odd that he's there at the press briefing. He wasn't in the damn control room.

Chop : That's right, yeah.

INT: What role in Project Blue Book did he fill?

Chop : Pardon?

INT: Project Blue Book did he fill? There was a good reason for him to be at the press conference?

Chop : No, he was there. He was there as to give an assist to General Samford, to answer any questions that Samford didn't have a handle on.

INT: Yeah. Did you know that Captain Ruppelt got a phone call from President Truman's air aid, General Langley, the day before the press conference?

Chop : Yeah.

INT: What do-, you heard about that? Or you just know about from the book?

Chop : Ed just said that he had heard from Vega [inaudible], from a call from the White House, that Truman was interested.

INT: Ah, did you know anything more from scuttlebutt about what President Truman's interest was about?

Chop : What Truman's interest was? No, I didn't. Except that we had various- . See, whether it was Truman, I don't know. Whether it was Truman or, which, which President said that, he would release any information to the press or to the American public-

INT: I think that was Carter?

Chop : -about UFOs.

INT: I think that was Carter?

Chop : Carter.

INT: Carter.

Chop : Carter. Carter. But he didn't do it. See, there, there'd, been statements made by people high up in the political world that if they had this or that, that they would release it to the public. But they never do. I can't remember who else made, some-, somebody made a sighting. Some, I don't know who, the President or somebody close to the White House. That a -

INT: Wasn't it a Russell, Senator Russell, and had a sighting? In Russia, 1955, Russia.

Chop : Oh, wait a while. I know who it was who was down in Arizona. Ah, President, ran for President on-

INT: Goldwater?

Chop : Goldwater! He made a sighting. And he said he saw ah, UFOs. So, he didn't do anything about it either.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : So I wonder whether, sometimes I wonder. But I don't-, I can't conceive of somebody telling the President they shouldn't talk about it.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : I can't imagine anybody doing that. If the President wanted to give the explanation of if there is any to give out.

INT: Yeah. Let, let me ask you about General Sory Smith? You, did you ever find out what his opinion about UFOs was?

Chop : No! No!

INT: How about Colonel Searles? Yeah?

Chop : Colonel Searles? Colonel Searles was adamantly opposed to anything that had to do with UFOs and outer space objects.

INT: And outer space objects?

Chop : Yeah, outer space. He didn't believe that they were from another planet, or that they were intelligently controlled.

INT: Yeah. So, you must have run into some problems on that point?

Chop : No, he s, he's, he was -

INT: He put up with you?

Chop : He was, he was a very, very open-minded guy. And he didn't care what I thought, although he probably knew that I thought they were from outer space. (laughter). But he never did say anything. Never gave me any instructions on that line. He only, he left me alone. He was a hell of a nice guy to work for!

INT: Were you actually instructed to suppress information about UFOs at certain types of sightings? Like maybe -

Chop : Suppress it?

INT: Yeah.

Chop : No, no. But we, we operated in-. Searles and ah, I mean, well Colonel Searles too was involved that way. Between Ed Ruppelt and Dewey and myself, we came up with a, a plan which I guess was approved by Colonel Adams, and the people who Dewey worked for. Where in order to try to plant the best interest in UFOs, which, which, which tell them that if you ask us any questions about any particular sighting, we'll give you all the information we have.

INT: But that doesn't-

Chop : But you got to tell us which you want, what information you want. Which sighting do you want to talk about? So that's where Keyhoe step in, see. That's where he got a, I guess he had that press clipping service. He took us for, for our words. He made us produce. And he'd have a sighting in Paducah, Kentucky, or something, and he's right there the next day. "Here's the sighting, I want to know about this. What do you know about this?" If we don't know about it, we'd try to find out for him. And that' s why everybody said, "Keyhoe was privileged to inside information." He wasn't, he wasn't. He, he had information we didn't have.

INT: But he, he took advantage of the loophole.

Chop : He did, sure. He, he was smart, and as I say, he spent 100% of his time on it. That's all he did. While the other guys, unless they got an inquiry from their editor, they weren't particularly interested in UFOs.

INT: Following this Washington sighting, you were instructed to assist Keyhoe. Is that right?

Chop : To do what?

INT: To help Keyhoe. To help Keyhoe out. Is that right?

Chop : To help?

INT: To help him out. To give him whatever information-

Chop : I didn't give no information that he didn't ask for.

INT: You, you weren't given any special instructions from-

Chop : No.

INT: Dewey or anyone-

Chop : Never! Never!

INT: Regarding information?

Chop : No. No. No, nobody, nobody ever told me to sup-, suppress anything. And ah-

INT: Well, did you ever have a, a special request from Keyhoe to, say, a large number of cases that you had to get special authorization?

Chop : If he had, he had two or three. Two or three sightings that he, you know, that the Air Force had information on that he would ask us for a detail, any details we had on, maybe half-a-dozen ah, times. Ah, but the general press had the same opportunity, they just didn't ask about it.

INT: Yeah, because I think it was Keyhoe in his book, ah, Flying Saucers From Outer Space, mentions a meeting he had with Boyd, Colonel Boyd?

Chop : He may have had. He didn't have with me.

INT: Boyd use to give a lot of information, but-

Chop : I'm sure he did.

INT: After, after the meeting, when he went back to Alexandria, he got a call. And I think, who was, who was it, Searles, that wanted-, that he wanted to introduce you to him. Now in the book, that's sort of how he describes it, as that. Does that make any sense at all?

Chop : Did that? He wanted-

INT: How you, how you first met Keyhoe was actually Colonel, was Colonel Boyd setting up the meeting?

Chop : Yeah. So I first meet Keyhoe.

INT: That's true?

Chop : Yeah!

INT: What a funny name.

Chop : Let me tell you something else. It was my experience that various very high level Air Force officers would have pet newsmen that they, for one reason or another would give out some information. Um, who was a, who was a well known columnist in Washington who died, and then his assistant took over?

INT: Drew Pearson?

Chop : Who?

INT: Drew Pearson?

Chop : Yeah, who was ah, who was his successor?

INT: Um, Jack Anderson?

Chop : Yes! Jack Anderson! I never talked to the man in my life, yet he had a lot to do with UFOs! He didn't get it from me! He got it from upstairs! He was on a privy basis with a lot of top people that I never talked to; Anderson. Yet he had UFO information. And he didn't get it from me, but he got it from the Pentagon. But he wouldn't deal on my, at my level. He would only deal with the, you know, maybe the Commanding Officer of the Air Force! He's - . I'm not saying that they would give him privy information, but he had it! And he didn't get it from me! And I was supposed to be the one to give it to him. So, there's a lot of that going on. To this day, I imagine that people like Anderson would have contacts that I knew nothing about. Probably has contacts -- and I hate to say this -- he probably know people in the CIA and every other branch of the service on the high-up level. That I could never, I couldn't get up that high. So, but I know it went on. I know it went on.

INT: I mean, was after the '52 sightings, did it seem to you as if, ah, Samford wanted to release more information to the public?

Chop : No, I don't, I never had any real intimate dealings with General Samford, ah -

INT: But I mean, you know, Samford through his operatives?

Chop : I, I, I -

INT: A change in policy following?

Chop : I'll, I'll, would say that there, you know, the Air Force is like any other - . You take any other, large corporation, you know a lot people, and you have a difference of opinion. It's very widespread. I mean, you have some people who certainly believe that UFOs were from outer space; others pooh-poohed the whole idea; and others were noncommittal. It's like anything, anything, any other large group of people. You're going to have diverse opinions.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : And that's the way the Air Force was. Ah, I talk to a lot of whom really believe they're from outer space.

INT: Do you remember any names?

Chop : Do I what?

INT: Names of any of those?

Chop : Names of you mean, big people?

INT: Yeah. Who ah, who thought they're from outer space, most likely?

Chop : Well, there would have been, I mean, I would read, just like any, like you would. I would read, I don't remember any names, but astronomers, and other scientists like Hynek, and just general people who were intelligent and followed the subjects closely. I knew a lot of pilots that would swear up and down they're, they're, they're from another planet. That their spaceships from outside of, our, our Earth. And I believe they're right! A lot of them are. A lot of them don't believe in it!

INT: Well, what do you think of Keyhoe's idea that these were like two groups within the Air Force? One group that was, well, he had three, didn't he? One for flying saucers, and one group that was -

Chop : There was, like you said, three groups. I believe him. I believe him. There's, there are people who have different opinions that are in very high positions.

INT: Well, what I think what he kind of getting at, is that there's sort of more of a kind organized approach to it.

Chop : Well, I, I also have that feeling too! But the, at my level, I wasn't privy to who, as who was calling the shots. I, I also had the opinion that I was being left out of a lot of things. For as a matter of fact, the only way I knew that the CIA was ever involved was when one day I came to work and there's a guy sitting in my chair! And I walk over thinking how he's somebody who wanted some information. He flashed a badge, CIA Badge on me. And said he wanted to know how a certain magazine got information that the CIA was involved. I said, "I, I can't answer your question. He didn't get it from me, because I didn't know you were involved!" (all laughter) what the hell! A lot of strange things like that had happened.

INT: Was that on UFOs?

Chop : Yeah, on UFOs. Yeah, they had to do with UFOs. I forgot, I forgot the name of the magazine that he was concerned about, but some magazine had mentioned that CIA was involved. And he wanted to know whether I told him that. Why I didn't even know the CIA was involved! (laughter) So what.

INT: Now you do!

Chop : Yeah, I know it now when he showed me his badge. That, that the CIA was involved!

INT: I'm just curious to know that Trem-, the Tremonton film. What, what sort of effect did that have?

Chop : The Tremonton film?

INT: Yeah.

Chop : I was very impressed. That's Nick, ah-

INT: Mariana.

Chop : Pardon?

INT: Mariana.

Chop : Mariana.

INT: No, Delbert Newhouse. I'm sorry. Newhouse, yes.

Chop : He's, Nick Mariana. Yeah, he's a baseball player. Baseball, ah -

INT: Right. Montana.

Chop : Owner, yeah.

INT: Montana. The Montana films.

Chop : Yeah, I was very impressed, not only with his pictures, but with him as a person. Ah, he's not the type to go willy-nilly, go all the god damned trouble he went to, ah, if he wasn't a concerned citizen.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : He's very honest.

INT: I mean, would people in the Air Force, what was their opinion of that, that Montana footage?

Chop : They were trying, trying, don't know how to phase this. In the, in the picture UFO, they, they, I forgot the general's name who saw the picture, made the remark, he said, "how about that?" That's the, the only, the only comment made.

INT: Hmm, was that true life?

Chop : True to what?

INT: That comment?

Chop : Yeah! He said, "How about that!" He looked at those pictures, and he got up and walked out. And everybody else did too! So how about that! Those are very fascinating pictures. You can't, convi-, you can't ever tell me those are two airplanes! I don't give a damn where the sun was. Ah, they impress, they impress me more than the Trementon pictures did. Tremonton pictures were -

INT: Yeah, hard to take.

Chop : Ah, my first personal impression was they were seagulls. But the guy who took the pictures claims that the-, he said he admits his pictures were no good. He said, if the pictures were what I saw, he said, there'd be no question about what UFOs are.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : And he also, that's Delbert Newhouse. He was a very honest guy too, who had with all his years in with the Navy as a photographer. What's he got to gain? You know, nothing! Got nothing to loose, nothing to gain.

INT: Yeah. So the Air Force was pretty impressed with those films?

Chop : Some people.

INT: Some weren't?

Chop : Some, some said, "Well, they look like seagulls." And you can't convince me that they anything but seagulls! Ah the- . Listen, I, I had scientists at, at Douglas Aircraft's Company, when I went, when I left the Pentagon. I, a scientist there, who took frame by frame of those pictures and measured everything, calculated the speeds of the objects. If they were 10,000 feet away, speed would be such and such. If they were 20,000, be such and such. And he did a very thorough job on that thing. And he was convinced that, ah, those were flying objects that we don't, we don't have.

INT: Uh-hmm. That was Robert Baker?

Chop : Bob Baker, yeah. He worked for a, see ah, some German scientist that we had at Douglas.

INT: Kampler.

Chop : I can't remember his name.

INT: Kampler?

Chop : Who?

INT: Ah, Werner Kampler? Walter? Walter, yeah, Walter Kampler. Klemperer. Klemperer.

Chop : Oh, it's not Klamp-, oh yes, Klemperer. That's right, Klemperer, who was a very smart cookie. And he gave, he gave that assignment to Bob Baker. And Bob pulled in his time for it, extensive amount of time on it. He is convinced that those things, at least he told me, were objects that we don't have. Not our, they're not ours. I think he's convinced that they were from outer space.

INT: Yeah. Have you ever gotten another report? Okay. You were saying that Bob Baker would never have gotten those films if it wasn't for you?

Chop : Yes! Because I knew Dr. Klemperer, and I knew where I could get the film. And I got Klemperer interested enough too, and, and Bob Baker interested enough to take a look at it frame by frame. And he did an awfully good on that, on that film. He must have spent weeks and weeks of studying those pictures frame by frame. It convinced him, at least he told me, that he was convinced they were vehicles from outer space. They were-, they were not from our world. If I hadn't gone to work at Douglas, he would never had an opportunity to see those films. I didn't know he made a presentation of, of his study to Congress.

INT: Right; that was in '68.

Chop : Yeah.

INT: Well, I was going to ask you if you had ever received at Douglas, another document on unconventional propulsion systems?

Chop : No!

INT: No? You don't remember anything like that?

Chop : No!

INT: Ah, it a, yeah. You know, it's, somewhere it is stated that you received a copy from Barrows, yeah, and from, and the person that made the statement was a public relations vice president, ah, Rosner? Robeson? Rocklin?

Chop : Rocklin.

INT: Yeah, um - .

Chop : He was my boss. He was a, he was a Vice President of Public Relations and I was an assistant to Rocklin.

INT: Yeah. Well, it's stated that there is a letter somewhere that says that he wrote that, summarized an independent analysis done by Douglas, dealing with unconventional propulsion methods. And the study was headed by Klemperer. You received a report that you - . You didn't receive that report? I mean -

Chop : No. I gave, I got that involved, but that's all. I, I didn't know at Douglas that Klemperer was making a study of other unconventional propulsion means. That as a matter of fact, Klemperer himself was very skeptical. But the-, and I don't know if he changed his mind after Bob Baker gave him his report, or his results of his study. But the, I think Baker convinced, Baker convinced himself as a result of his own study.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : And I don't know how Klemperer reacted to that.

INT: Well, here's a letter that you wrote to Michael Hall last month.

Chop : Yeah.

INT: And it says, just to quote it correctly; that you're telling him, that whenever press people were given a look at Blue Book files, many of the better sightings were deleted from the material.

Chop : Yeah!

INT: Including the Life and Look people?

Chop : Sure!

INT: Can you explain that a little bit?

Chop : Well, take when the press knew the-, when they knew the press people were coming along, they'd pick up the sightings they wanted to give them to them, and gave it to them. That was it. For an example, I wasn't involved in the subject at that time, but the Roswell incident was not in the Blue Book files. 'Cause I looked through the Blue Book files. I never saw it! I was specifically looking for the Roswell case. It wasn't there.

INT: How did you think to do that?

Chop : Pardon?

INT: How did you know to, to, to look for that? Or what?

Chop : Well, I was -, Captain Ruppelt let me look through the files. I didn't see a Roswell file.

INT: How did you know to look for the Roswell- ?

Chop : Well, it was well publicized. I knew that the incident had happened. It was all in the press, in 1947. So I was aware that they had the big sighting and I was curious. I wanted to know what the hell happened down there. But it wasn't in the files, so - and Bob Ginna didn't have anything in this story either. So he saw the files, supposedly saw, privy to all the files, and he didn't mention Roswell. A lot of the sightings I remember. A sighting by two Air Force Brig. Colonels who were flying over the Rocky Mountains or some -

INT: Carson City.

Chop : area that -

INT: Carson City, Nevada?

Chop : Could be. It was, and they had this UFO underneath them. And they were flying above it, and they asked permission to fire at it! Information was not granted, because they said they could be over an inhabited area. I talked to those two guys, and believe me, these things convinced me. These guys are not out to BS Anybody! You know, they just, they're just human beings who honestly trying to, to explain what they saw.

INT: At one point, I'm not sure when this was, but you went out and investigated a case with Dewey in New York?

Chop : With Dewey?

INT: Yeah.

Chop : Yeah.

INT: Can you ah, elaborate on that?

Chop : Yes.

INT: You know, set it up and -

Chop : That was oh, along about nineteen fifty-two, I think, '51. And we got a report in that the -, from some farm people where it-, out in was it Fairfax County, Virginia?

INT: Yeah, in Virginia.

Chop : And they were in Fairfax County, and they habitually went through the grocery store on Saturday to buy groceries for the week. Because, ah, in addition to the farm the, the fella had a job somewhere. So they were usually, would go shop-, would go shopping during, on Saturday night. So this particular Saturday night they, ah, got home from this, from this store. And ah, it was evening, dark. And there was father and the mother and ah, let's see, who else? I think it was the father and the mother. And they got in the house and the mother told her husband, said the, she said the, if he would take a look up at the hen house cause the chickens were making noise, and she said she smelled a snake. She said a snake gives off an odor, which she was familiar with. And she thought there was a snake out there. So he went out the back door and walked down toward the, the chicken house, chicken pen, and he noticed a big, big moon out that night. And right over the, some trees, they were back in, back in back of the farm, was an, another object. It was almost as large as a full moon. And there were four or five little objects circling around the big object. And he stood there and watched it. And he called his wife, and she watched it. And at that time her, their daughter came home. She was on a date with her boyfriend and they came home. And ah, saw the mother, were looking at these obje-, at these objects. And they were looking at them, too! And somebody called the police department, Fairfax County Police Department. And they sent an officer, car out with four officers in. And they came up to the farm, and these objects were still there, orbiting around the big one. And they all witnessed this thing till, about -- they had come home at about 12 -- about midnight. The daughter came home shortly thereafter, and the police arrived after about one o'clock or so, two o'clock. And they sat there and watched this thing, these, these objects, until dawn. And then they just merged and took off. The report should be in the Police Department files, at Fairfax County Police Department.

INT: What about Air Force files?

Chop : Pardon?

INT: What about Air Force files? You and Dewey investigated?

Chop : No, I don't know if Dewey ever made a report on it or not. I don't know.

INT: That's pretty unusual that you would go out on a UFO investigation? Why was that done?

Chop : I don't know; because I wanted to go. (all laughter)

INT: So you were doing out of your own time?

Chop : Yeah, sure. It was all at night, and I went out with Dewey. And Dewey interrogated them, I just listened. It was very impressive. The people were obviously sane people and when you talk about four police officers witnessing this for a couple of hours. And they knew the moon was out, and they could see the moon. It could-, it wasn't the moon. It was in the opposite direction from the moon, and that convinced me that, ah, there's a lot to be said for UFOs. Ask Dewey about that.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : I think he'll remember that. Are you going to talk to Dewey?

INT: Yep.

Chop : You remind Dewey. He may, he may, he may have written a report. I'm sure he would. Dewey was very thorough that way.

INT: Speaking of Dewey, ah, do you think you might give us some help in, of arranging an interview with, with Dewey?

Chop : Do you think, what? That you could - ?

INT: Help us with-, arrange an interview?

Chop : Sure.

INT: Write a letter or -

Chop : I'm sure, I'm sure, he would. I'm sure he would be happy to.

INT: Let me, let me ask a few, a few questions about the film UFO.

Chop : Yeah.

INT: Oh, the other questions is this: let's talk a little about Ruppelt's book, the release in '56.

Chop : Yeah.

INT: What, you know, can you kind of, what sort of an impact did that have? What-

Chop : Well, ah, the impact that I had, that, that he doesn't think the way I do, that's all. I think he had enough information to convince himself that he's following something that he can't have furnished answers for. I think, he himself, I think, had some idea that these things could be from another planet.

INT: You do?

Chop : I, I feel, I, I know that if he had been in Washington that night, he would have been convinced!

INT: Yeah.

Chop : (laughter) I don't think anyone -. Did you talk to any of the other people?

INT: No. It would be nice to find some of the radar operators.

Chop : That is, let's get hold of Barnes, he was the Chief. I'm sure he'll talk to you. Talk to Dewey. Dewey wasn't there, ah, during part of the intercept. He was on the phone talking to Bob Ginna of Life, of Life magazine. Ah, incidentally, it wasn't, can't think of the name of the guy who said he wouldn't, wouldn't have a job the next day. I'm pretty sure it was Life magazine. Could be Time. I don't know. Probably didn't pay any attention to it.

INT: (laughter) Let me ask you about the whole controversy of-, about your help to Keyhoe, getting, citing files for his book. Yeah.

Chop : Well, I went over that. He spent 100% of his time, on the subject. And-

INT: Right. But wasn't there- ?

Chop : He knew, he know, he knew that, that are, are, are agreements. Was, was when we made the agreements between Dewey and Ruppelt, Dewey's bosses I suppose, and myself. I didn't call, I didn't call the shots as to what we would, who we would give things to and who we wouldn't. Ah, that was always, the, the policy was always made upstairs in Dewey's group.

INT: But, but-

Chop : But- 1:15

INT: Didn't you resign over the incident? You got burned over, they, they accused you, didn't they, of giving him-

Chop : Sure, but what I say, the only answer I can give you is that he spent 100% of his time asking me questions to give him sightings reports. And they knew. We told the press we'll give you all the information we got, but you have got to tell us what sightings report you want the information on. Keyhoe asked for that, that help. The other guys didn't!

INT: Okay.

Chop : I still think that Keyhoe had a, ah, ah, press clipping service.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : So he knew what to ask for.

INT: Well he, he had the NI-, he had, well he didn't have NICAP at the time.

Chop : I did not give Don Keyhoe any special treatment.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : That he, he never got anything he didn't ask for.

INT: But, but you did get accused of ah, of ah, giving him classified reports? Right?

Chop : No. Nobody ever, nobody ever accused me of it, that I know of.

INT: Okay. Then there's no security breech investigation?

Chop : Pardon?

INT: Was there any security breech investigation?

Chop : I don't know why there would be. All we did was follow policy.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : I had to give them the information he asked for. If he, if he had, had wanted a specific sighting, wanted information on a specific sighting, I would give it to him. I would not volunteer to give him a sighting! Because, remember, I had other things to do. I was not 100% involved in, in UFOs. I had other things to do. The only time I got involved in UFOs, was when somebody specifically wanted information on a certain sighting, I give it to them if I had it.

INT: Right.

Chop : If I, I had to go to Ed Ruppelt or Dewey to get it.

INT: Right. Do you, do you remember writing a letter to Keyhoe's publisher?

Chop : Yes, and that's, and that's a bone I got to pick with Keyhoe.

INT: In the back of his book, isn't it?

Chop : Yes. He came to me and said that his publisher wanted some assurance that the sightings he had were legitimate. And I told him, you know, I'll would write him a letter, stating that the, the understanding was that it would not be published. And anywho, the company, he blamed them for putting it on the book. His agreement, the agreement I had with him was that I would write a letter to his publisher, but it was not for publication. And I raised hell with Keyhoe about that, too. He blamed it on his publisher.

INT: How about the film? How did you get involved with the-, Greene and Rouse?

Chop : That's very interesting. I got to, to California. I went to Douglas Aircraft, ah, and got a job there. And the local paper -- I think it was the Santa Monica Outlook, or whatever it is -- they wanted somebody. Somebody from the Douglas company knew somebody at the paper and happened to mention that I was working at Douglas, and I had been involved with UFOs.

INT: Was that Branch or Quinn maybe?

Chop : Then I got a car, a call from the, from the paper. And they wrote a story about it, you know, because-

INT: The Santa Ana Register?

Chop : Pardon?

INT: Santa Ana Register?

Chop : No. No, it was ah, it was ah, Santa Monica Evening Outlet, I think it is. I think it is the Outlet. I'm not sure if that's the name of it. Well anyway, they wrote a story which I didn't, I didn't know they were going to write. Somebody told them I was working at Douglas and so they sent a guy out to my house and, and he wrote a story. I told him, you know, what I'd been doing in Washington. Then I got a call from a guy by the name of Clarence Greene. He wanted to do a story, or film on UFOs. And I, you know, I told him that I, you know, would be interested, providing he would present an honest picture, not try and dress it up, not try put any hoaxes in it. And he said that what he wanted to do, straight documentary. He didn't want ah, jazz it up in any way. And so I went down, talked to him, and he convinced me that, that's what he wanted to do. A straight out-and-out documentary. So I called Dewey Fournet again, and asked Dewey if he would help me do this. And he said he would. And that's how we got into that.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : And later on, when the film got put out, my wife and I were out shopping. And we came home, and my daughter was, she was 14 at that time. And ah, when we got home I asked her, "did we get any telephone calls?" And she said yes. She said that you got a call. She said, "I got it written down. Her, her name is Gloria Swanson. "

INT: Oh, really?

Chop : And I said, "Oh, come on. Gloria Swanson!" She said, "Why? I wrote it down. That's the, that's the name of the person. " She didn't know Gloria Swanson. She only 14 years old at the time. There was a phone number, so I called the phone number. And I just said, "is this number so and so, and so and so?" And the voice said "Yes, is this Mr. Chop?" And I said yes. She said, "This is Gloria Swanson. " (all laughter) so she insisted she wanted to meet me. So I told her I'd stop over where she was, with my wife. And we got in this very fastidious house in the Santa Monica hills. And the, we enter the house. There was a little Japanese garden with little bells tinkling in the trees. And a little pond with fish in it. And ah, got into the house, the, the, floor was black ebony.

INT: Wow!

Chop : And a startling white carpet over it. Just beautiful! And there was a gal standing on her head in a corner, (laughter) and it was Gloria Swanson!

INT: Oh, yeah?

Chop : She came down off of her head. She was doing yoga or something I guess. And ah, it was her, by golly! And we got talking to her and ah, met her several times after that. She's very lovely person. And ah, then she moved away, and I lost touch with her and so forth. It was very curious, she was very interested in-

INT: She called you after the release of the film? Or from the article?

Chop : She ah, had to do with ah, see, wait a while. I don't recall.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : I think it was the film.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : I think it was the film.

INT: What did she want?

Chop : She just wanted to talk about UFOs.

INT: Yeah?

Chop : That's all. (laughter)

INT: How, how accurate was-, were the dramatic structure of the film compared to, you know, your experiences?

Chop : It's very accurate!

INT: I mean, how accurate? Extremely accurate?

Chop : Extremely accurate!

INT: I mean, you could-, that's the history, right there?

Chop : Damn right!

INT: Oh, really?

Chop : Right as-

INT: What, what was different that you can think of?

Chop : What was different?

INT: Yeah.

Chop : What was - ?

INT: What was changed about the dramatics structure?

Chop : Nothing!

INT: Nothing?

Chop : Not a thing. Ah, Clarence Greene was up to his word. He, he, Ed Ruppelt was involved as, ah, in other words he looked over the script and everything, and agreed that it was perfect. That, that picture was very honest. I wouldn't have gotten involved in it if it wasn't.

INT: Yeah. Do you remember the premiere of the film?

Chop : Yep.

INT: Did you go to a premier?

Chop : Mm-hmm.

INT: In Hollywood?

Chop : Um, yes I went to it.

INT: What was that like?

Chop : Pardon?

INT: What was that like? Do you remember?

Chop : Where was it?

INT: Yeah.

Chop : No, I don't recall.

INT: I mean, was, was it an interesting experience? Was it, you know? Was Greene and Rouse there?

Chop : Frankly I didn't think much of the film.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : I didn't think much of it because, ah, it was too honest. There was no bullshit.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : So there you are.

INT: It wasn't that entertaining, huh?

Chop : That's right! (laughter) It wasn't that entertaining. But, but that' s the way, only only way I agreed to do it was if they were strictly honest and not try to jazz it up in any way. And so I was disappointed in it. But ah, as a matter of fact, I didn't get anything for it, either.

INT: You didn't?

Chop : No!

INT: Were you supposed to get something out of it?

Chop : Yeah.

INT: What happened now?

Chop : Didn't make any money. They cut-, I found out that they had two sets of books in Hollywood.

INT: Yeah. Every, everybody learns that after the fact.

Chop : Yeah. And, and after I found out that there's, ah, nothing. The film didn't make a nickle.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : So I didn't get anything.

INT: Ah, that's strange.

Chop : What are you going to do?

INT: Ruppelt didn't get anything out of that? Fournet?

Chop : As far as I know. I don't know what their agreement was, or what Dewey was. I know what I had. I was going to get 5% of nothing!

INT: Yeah.

Chop : That's what I got.

INT: Well, you got it anyway.

Chop : Pardon?

INT: You got 5% of nothing!

Chop : Yeah, 5% of nothing.

INT: Did you ever hear about what was known as The Top Secret Estimate of the Situation?

Chop : No.

INT: Project Sign did. They sent to General Vandenberg?

Chop : No, I don't know anything about that. I'm sure Dewey does, but I don't.

INT: Yeah, Dewey. Dewey read, obviously read it.

Chop : You remember, Dewey was more or less, ah, the guy I, I was working for in a way, not on paper. He had nothing to do with my position or anything, except the way they had set it up in his office, was that Dewey was my contact. And if he didn't have the information, I could go to Ed Ruppelt. And that's the way it was. And Ed Ruppelt and Dewey both know that the agreement was with the, with the-, we're going to handle the press. Was that they ask for information on a specific sighting, we give them everything we got, if we got anything! And if we didn't have anything, we couldn't give any information.

INT: Right.

Chop : And we could not give them -- we couldn't feed them -- information.

INT: Yeah. They had to ask for it.

Chop : That's right. We had to play it straight.

INT: Who, who established that policy?

Chop : That I don't know. I -- up in Dewey 's office somewhere, it had to be up there -- cause I didn't make policy.

INT: So maybe Adams and the-

Chop : It could be Adams. It could be higher than Ed. It could be Samford. I don't know things that go on way upstairs. I just, I was just a peon.

INT: Everybody wanted to know that question.

Chop : I know.

INT: Historians though, want to know that question.

Chop : I can't answer the question because all I can do is refer 'em to Dewey.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : And Dewey can only refer them to somebody ahead of him. I don't know

INT: And Samford is not around, so -(laughter)

Chop : I just don't know. I know there was a very [missing word] interest in the upper circles on UFOs. Finally I found out that the CIA was involved. I'm sure the FBI was involved.

INT: Let's, let's talk about that for a second. I know you do not have too much information on the Robertson Panel because you were kept out of the loop, right?

Chop : Yeah!

INT: But, did you see the effect of the Robertson Panel on the, you know, on the, on Air Force policy? UFO policy?

Chop : No.

INT: You didn't? There's-

Chop : No.

INT: You didn't even know it happened, that?

Chop : Didn't know it happened.

INT: When did you find out about it?

Chop : I never found out about the Robertson Panel until I read Ruppelt's book! (all laughter)

INT: In '56. When did you leave the Air Force?

Chop : What's?

INT: When did you leave the Air Force?

Chop : When did I leave it?

INT: Yeah.

Chop : In '53.

INT: How, how did that, I mean, what was your reason for leaving? Professionally?

Chop : My wife loved California. She wanted to go back to California. So I promised her I'd go back. And as a matter of fact, she was going to go to work for-, she was a hostess in an restaurant business. A very attractive hostess, I might add. She got an opportunity to go to work in one of the jazziest restaurants in Washington -- I can't remember the name of the damn place -- which she always wanted, for since the time since we moved to Washington. She wanted to get a job as a hostess at this particular restaurant.

INT: Okay.

Chop : And they called her one day. And it happened to be a week after I decided to go back to California.

INT: Ah!

Chop : And the restaurant called her. And she said, "I hate to tell you this," she said, "but we' re going to move back to California." And she, and they said, you know, the opening finally came. They were very disappointed because they wanted her. But the - . She wanted to come to California and I had already told her I would. I ready to so fix her up, I was going to go back to California. And everybody said I'm crazy. Ah, but the - . I'm going to give up a good job in the Pentagon to go look, to live in California when the pay in California is not as good as it is in the east. And I'll be lucky to get a job. I said, "Well that isn't going to bother me. " And ah, so we went to California. And the first place I went to get, look for a job was Douglas Aircraft and they hired me like that! And they said they weren't going to pay as much as they did in Washington. And I got three thousand dollars more a year!

INT: Oh, really?

Chop : (laughter) And then I went to Steve Rocklin, my boss, A.I.A. meeting. And ah, was talking to a guy from ah, used to public relations, Vice President of Public Relations at, ah, Rockwell. And ah, Rocky introduced me to him. And when Rocky walked away, he said, "Gee, I wish you'd come over to our place first. " Because ah, ah, it turns out I could have got a job if I wanted one over there at Rockwell.

INT: Yeah. So you were there nine years?

Chop : Pardon?

INT: You were there nine years at Douglas?

Chop : Nine years.

INT: So that would have been till 1962?

Chop : 1961.

INT: So, to just finish up with the Air Force, for you leaving the Air Force - was it a purely personal decision?

Chop : Just because my wife didn't like Washington, DC.

INT: Yeah. Didn't have to do with Keyhoe or anything like that?

Chop : She wanted to go back. Pardon?

INT: It didn't have anything to do with Keyhoe or anything like - ?

Chop : Oh, no.

INT: There's some people who say there's some connection with Keyhoe. Or, or the fact that ah, you know, ah, following the Robertson Panel, it seems as though a lot of the pro extraterrestrial hypothesis types in the Air Force were moved out. Fournet left.

Chop : No-o-o.

INT: A bunch of people left their positions-

Chop : To tell, to tell how wrong that is, I, when I, when I took the job of NASA. , And we had to go to live in Houston, my wife was upset. She wanted to be in California. So I promised her, I said, "Honey, I promise you that within five years, I'll get assigned back to California. Some way I'll work it." So under those circumstances, she agreed to stay in Houston. And in five years, I got transferred back here. I quit my job at NASA. In Washington, DC, again. Because we were living in, Fairfax, I think. I can't remember the name of the damn town. Ah, but she was very unhappy there. And ah, so I, they were having a R.I.F.E., what they called a R. I. F. E. , A Reduction In Force, in NASA. And my boss was Jerry, Jerry Lettier. You might have heard of him. He was a part of National Transportation Safety Board. He was involved in aviation all his life. I, I walk over to Jerry and I said, "Jerry, I want you to put me on a R.I.F.E. List. " He said, "Gee," he was astounded. "What for?" He said, "I-,why do you want a-, aren't you happy with NASA? And I said, "well, my wife is unhappy with Washington, DC. " And I said, "I promised her I'll go back to California." And he said, "Well, gee," he said, "Let me see what I can do." And Jerry went up to talk with people upstairs. I assume, ah, with George Lowe, who was head of NASA at that time. And I told them that I wanted to leave NASA. And ah, go back to California. And he said he didn't know. I suppose, I'm just assuming, ah, he came back down a couple of days and he said "Al," he said, "if I can transfer you to California, would you stay with NASA. ?" And I said, "sure. " I said, "I'm gonna have to get a job when I get out there. And if I like my work-, I just don't-, we're not happy living in Washington, DC. " He said, "Boy, that's a relief!" He said, "Get ready to pack your bags," he said, "I'm going to transfer you to Rockwell in Downey. And so I kept my same job, only in different positions at different parts of the country. At that time I was working at, ah, first I was with Shorty, Shorty Powers, you know, an assistant, a Public Affairs Officer. And then I was transferred to the Pentagon. Not the Pentagon, to NASA Headquarters. And my wife didn't like it at all. So we decided to go back to California. And Jerry said if I'll stay with NASA. , he would transfer me back here. So I said, "Okay, I'm going to have to get a job when I get out there, so I'll stay with NASA. " And I did.

INT: So how long were you at Rockwell? Till, till about what year?

Chop : Oh, till 1976, I think, '75. Something like that.

INT: And then you retired?

Chop : Yeah.

INT: Did you ever encounter any astronaut UFO sightings?

Chop : Did I have what . . . ?

INT: Did you encounter information or situations about astronauts seeing UFOs in orbit?

Chop : Yeah, Pete Conrad saw one. He reported that he had a, a wing man flying alongside him. And it went around two orbits with him and then took off. Ah, what's-his-name, ah, Armstrong reported that they saw an object on their trajectory between the moon and the spacecraft. And they look like an open book to the naked eye. They looked at it with binoculars. It looks like a tube, and he said, "I can look right down its guts. " And ah, it took off. They had several sightings. I'm privy to all that they did have. They had one on Skylab, I know. They reported one. But by this time, I wasn't intere-, wasn't going get involved with UFOs again. So ah -

INT: You had enough of it?

Chop : I had, I had all I could stand! I'm firmly convinced that whatever these objects are, they're real, and they are out there. And ah, we don't have the answers.

INT: No? Are, are, are you seriously state-, were you fed up with the whole situation at A.T.I.C.?

Chop : No. I'm, I'm interested yet, but -- still very interested -- but I don't want to be involved in it. I wouldn't want to go back to work in the job, involved with UF-, with UFOs.

INT: And why? Did - . I mean-

Chop : Pardon?

INT: Why?

Chop : It's a, it's a, ah, there's no end to, there's no answers! You know, there's convi-, convictions, but no answers. A lot of people are convic-, convic-, their convictions is there's nothing to this subject. Others, people like me, think there is something to it. There's too much, too much evidence, to indicate there is something orbiting the earth, or coming into our atmosphere, into our envelope, that we can't explain. Whether it's ah, interplanetary spaceships or what, I don't know. But they're there, whatever they are. They're there.

INT: Yeah. Let me ask you about the Washington National sightings before I forget about it. You were mentioning, and I think it was off camera, that er-

Chop : In that area.

INT: That you, you were telling me something, about the Washington National-

Chop : Yeah.

INT: Incident. That ah, you were a little surprised about why the fighters were not based at Andrews or Bolling?

Chop : Yeah.

INT: All the way over Newcastle, Delaware.

Chop : Yeah. That was because of runways at Bolling were being repaired. And a-

INT: For how long? I mean, when did they go?

Chop : Two weeks!

INT: You mean the two weeks-

Chop : At least two weeks! The, the runways were down at Bolling, and they based the -- the two or three, groups of fighters or interceptors -- they based them over at Newcastle, which was the nearest place to the Capitol that they could come in from. And it was just, to me, seems to me somebody knew they weren't, weren't there. I don't know.

INT: Leon Davidson, has ah, you know, speculated that there was something fishy about, ah, why the fighters were not nearby-

Chop : Yeah!

INT: Just when the sightings took place.

Chop : I thought so, too! But it seems to me like somebody had intelligence about that situation, and put on a show! (laughter) I don't know.

INT: They knew they could get away with it, huh?

Chop : Yeah!

INT: Let me ask you this. Ah, were you aware of the Continental Air Defense exercise that was going on during the Washington National sightings?

Chop : No!

INT: Called Operation Signpost?

Chop : No, never heard of it till now.

INT: That was actually in the newspapers. Washington Post, ah, had enormous amounts of coverage at exactly the same time, around July 21st through July 28th.

Chop : I didn't know that.

INT: And their flying. It, it was a joint ah, S.A.C. Air Defense Command operation where they were testing Strategic Air Command ability to penetrate targets or simulated targets, and Air Defense ability to, you know, and detect and repel, simulated attacks.

Chop : Could be.

INT: And Washington was one of the area, regions, that they were involved in. There was chaff. Radar chaff was dropped on the Washington, DC area during that. It only seemed to me that, that, there could be some relationship between that exercise going on.

Chop : Quite possible, but I hadn't heard about it till now. But how would they get them up there? And how would they get them, whatever was up there, how would they get them moving as fast as they were moving?

INT: Well there would have been electronic countermeasures exercises as part of it. I have seen classified -- or now declassified -- orders that maximum electronic countermeasures detected during this Operation Signpost.

Chop : I don't know. I don't know anything about that. And I haven't heard about it. I don't think that'll change my mind about anything.

INT: Well, let me ask you this. You're very impressed with the fact that when the fighters came in on the radar screen, the UFOs had disappeared, and just as soon as that first intercept flight left, then the UFOs came back.

Chop : That's right.

INT: But now, what a skeptic would say, is that a temperature inversion layer would have been reflecting ground targets and when the fighters came in there, they disrupted the air layers because of the, you know, sonic waves coming in, and the exhaust, of course. And that disrupted the ability of the inversion layer to reflect targets so the UFOs targets -- or inversion targets -- disappeared.

Chop : Right.

INT: But as soon as the planes left, they were no longer disrupting-

Chop : Yeah.

INT: The air layer. So they were able -- the air layer was able -- to settle down again and reflect targets.

Chop : Well, we got another group in about 2 o'clock in the morning, and the UFOs stayed there that time.

INT: Okay.

Chop : Why didn't they disappear again?

INT: And the other problem is there was no temperature inversion.

Chop : Yeah!

INT: Well, that's not true either. It turns out that when somebody checked the temperature inversion records in 1952. And you heard reports of supposedly there was no inversion-

Chop : There was no inversion.

INT: Because they checked only one weather station.

Chop : They what?

INT: They only checked one weather station in the Washington area. There's several weather stations.

Chop : Yeah.

INT: And what other scientists -- like at University of Colorado -- in, in the '60's, checked. They checked all the weather stations in the Washington region. They found there were temperature inversions that night.

Chop : They never, they never told the Air Force. At least they never told me. I can only go by what the weather bureau told me in Washington. And that there was no temperature inversions. One-tenth of one percent. And it took on the other 10% to pick up ground clutter. So that's, that's what I'm struck with.

INT: But you know, that night there were some. They did pick up some ground clutter.

Chop : Yes, they did some. But they could tell.

INT: They knew what-

Chop : They knew what it was.

INT: They had seen them before?

Chop : Yeah! Talk to Burns!

INT: Yeah.

Chop : You're going to talk to Burns, aren't you?

INT: Yeah, if we can find him.

Chop : Pardon?

INT: If we can find him. If he's still alive.

Chop : Yeah. You can find him. I'm, maybe you got a fox there. Hell, I'm glad to be alive yet. I'm 83 now. And this was fifty some years ago!

INT: Yeah.

Chop : Ah, I'm lucky to be alive!

INT: Do you know where Burns would be? Is he down in Louisiana or something like that?

Chop : I wouldn't know. I'll tell you, the only per-, person who might know would be Dewey.

INT: Okay.

Chop : I'm sure Dewey would be interested in what you just told me.

INT: Did we cover all of Mike's questions?

Chop : Well, is that about it?

INT: We covered quite a while, just about. We got a couple of minutes left right here on the tape.

Chop : All right.

INT: We pretty much, I covered pretty much everything I got here. We went through NASA.

Chop : I know a lot of people in, in, in Washington were unhappy with me. Mostly those who pooh-pooh the whole subject, and ah, some of the press who might be a little disgusted with me because they got-, feel that Keyhoe got preferential treatment, which was not true.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : I think Ed Ruppelt would have backed me up on that; and Dewey will back me.

INT: It's just that Keyhoe was more persistent in using the loophole about specific targets, about a kind of shotgun approach to it.

Chop : Yes, and, and that he spent 100% of his time doing this, too. The other guys were just stringers, you know, for their newspaper. Unless they got a specific, request for something, or had to do with UFOs, they wouldn't bother with me.

INT: Yeah. Did you ever, ah, hear, ah, people in the Air Force seriously proposing the Soviets as an explanation for UFOs?

Chop : Did they ever? Did, did they what?

INT: Think of Soviets as a serious explanation?

Chop : Certainly! The A.T.I.C. had ah vol-, voluminous files on sightings reported in Russia to the Russian government. Of where they got this information, I don't know. But they had sightings in Russia of UFOs. Quite a voluminous group, too.

INT: So were they thinking that the-

Chop : And from other countries, too.

INT: Yeah, were they thinking the Russians could be producing UFOs? Or causing them?

Chop : No, no, no. I think that-

INT: All the time you were there, that was never discussed as a possible-

Chop : No, was not. Nobody paid any attention to that, that would be far-fetched. They would think it was far fetched. Thinking we were, you know, more alert than the Russians and had better equipment and better radar, and better airplanes. And then we found out that the Russians had a Sputnik! (laughter)

INT: Yeah. We were ahead of each other. How about psychological warfare? Did you ever hear anything discussed about UFOs in psychological warfare?

Chop : People had, had the idea, I heard. I, I can't pin anybody down in the Air Force who. But I read, you know, the numerous reports from other scientists of discussing the subject with that thought in mind: That these things could be psychological warfare. They go all the way back to the foo fighters over during World War II. But when you go back in history, there are reports from ship captains back in the 1600s, who would, some, would watch an object rise from beneath the sea and go up into the air, and others coming down going into the water, and floating alongside the ship. There are people back in history. Some reports from England, in the old logs of ships' captains in the 1600s sailing, in days of sailing ships. Sightings reported of UFOs, which they didn't call them UFOs then, but they called them something: some object, strange object. So I guess you can go back two or three hundred years and get reports of UFOs.

INT: One more question about the UFO movie. Did ever find out or hear of any efforts to a kind of blacklist the movie or surpress it? Or a-

Chop : No.

INT: Block it?

Chop : No.

INT: Did you know if the Air Force was concerned about its release?

Chop : I, I was never approached by anybody in the Air Force from a critical standpoint. Nobody ever said anything and never criticized the movie. I don't see how they can. We stuck to the line, and I made damn certain it was accurate. Nobody can, can say that that movie was out of line.

INT: No.

Chop : I don't think it was.

INT: I know it was Harden who was running Blue Book at the time. Yeah. I know he was concerned slightly.

Chop : Who was?

INT: He kept a separate file on the film.

Chop : Who did?

INT: Gregory. Captain Hardin, and then Captain Gregory.

Chop : Captain Gregory? Never heard of him.

INT: They were the Project Blue Book Chiefs after Ruppelt.

Chop : Oh, well, tough!

INT: Yeah. They were a little concerned, but I don't think it amounted to anything.

Chop : No, I don't think. And they, and they can't criticize it. I mean, from what standpoint? We were as honest as we could be.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : And nobody could say that what we portrayed was dishonest.

INT: Mm-hmm. Did you keep in contact with Ruppelt at all, while you were at Douglas?

Chop : From time to time, yeah, cause he died shortly after.

INT: Yeah. Yeah, just before he died, he revised his book. Did you know anything about that?

Chop : I didn't know that.

INT: Added three chapters.

Chop : He what, added?

INT: Yeah, three. They were much, much, more skeptical than the earlier book.

Chop : I don't know.

INT: But you kept in contact with Dewey?

Chop : Yep. I still do. Still exchange Christmas cards. About once a year we keep in touch. I have admired Dewey these years. He stuck by his guns, in the face of a lot of criticism from higher ups.

INT: When you were in the Air Force, for the D.O.D., was there a change in structure of a public information office? Because of, were you under the Air Force or under the, the Department Of Defense?

Chop : I was working for Air Materiel Command at Wright-Patterson. And then I went to D.O.D., Department of Defense.

INT: Well, at some point, I think maybe in 1953, didn't Secretary of Air Force set up the Office of Information directly under him?

Chop : Directly under him?

INT: Yeah, called Secretary of the Air Force-

Chop : If he did it, he did it after I left.

INT: Okay.

Chop : I don't know.

INT: I have a question about Fournet's study that he did that was presented at the Robertson Panel?

Chop : Yeah.

INT: You know, the intelligent motions of the objects?

Chop : Yeah.

INT: Intelligently guided. Were you privy to that study? Can you comment on it?

Chop : Can I what?

INT: Can you comment on the study? Were you, you - . Did-

Chop : I never saw it.

INT: Okay. You weren't-

Chop : I never saw it.

INT: Would you know anything about it at the time?

Chop : No.

INT: Okay.

Chop : No. No, I didn't. Ah, he must have presented that after I left.

INT: Yeah, in '53.

Chop : Oh.

INT: It was simply classified.

Chop : I, I know that, that Dewey was convinced we were dealing with, ah, something we don't understand on this earth. I know, I know that. And ah, I'll, I'll say I admire him for sticking to his guns against criticism from higher ups. Way, way high up. He is a very honest person.

INT: I really appreciated the time. We've got another ten minutes on this tape.

Chop : Oh well, I got nothing else to do except go to bed.

INT: (laughter) Okay. What can we do for ten minutes then?

Chop : I'll give you another Coke.

INT: Okay. (laughter)

Chop : Let me have that glass.

INT: All right. Careful of the mic there.

Chop : Pardon?

INT: Careful of the mic.

Chop : You got -- ah, here's another one -- some of these?

INT: Okay. Okay, thank you.

Chop : That's yours, I'm not using ice. I like root beer. I drink a lot of it.

INT: Yeah. (laughter)

Chop : I can't drink alcohol, I take narcotics. I got a bad back.

INT: Oh yeah.

Chop : The only thing that keeps me walking is methadone.

INT: Oh, really! Wow.

Chop : I take methadone. That's what they give heroin addicts, but it's also a painkiller, is what it is.

INT: Okay. I'm rolling.

Chop : You want to go now?

INT: Yeah.

Chop : What's up? You want to know more about Dewey?

INT: No, you're talking about Keyhoe.

Chop : We're going to talk about the criticism that I may have given preferential treatment to, to ah, Don Keyhoe. The one thing that they don't know is that everything I gave Don Keyhoe, I got specifically from Dewey or Ed Ruppelt to give to him.

INT: Oh, really?

Chop : So, in other words, I didn't give anything that wasn't approved by people who were higher up in Blue Book than I was.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : So they knew what he was getting.

INT: And yet, Ruppelt and, and Dewey Fournet didn't get the criticism.

Chop : Get what?

INT: And yet-

Chop : Yeah.

INT: Ruppelt and Fournet didn't get-

Chop : Didn't get criticism. But everything was cleared by them! So-

INT: It came from them in the first place.

Chop : There we are, yeah.

INT: So you're, you're right between them, so-

Chop : Yeah.

INT: So you got all the blame.

Chop : Yeah. Yeah, there was no other defense. I mean, except everything I gave to anybody had to be cleared through Dewey or Ed Ruppelt. Or they cleared from high, higher up.

INT: Let me ask you, about this book you had a couple of comments about.

Chop : Yeah. Well, in- . First of all, when they're talking about these sightings of Washington, they got the, they say that the intercept one Lt. Paterson saw, what he saw was in the first place: It was the second place! And the first place they talk about the, the, pilot saw nothing. It was the second flight.

INT: Yeah, second intercept.

Chop : That's right. So that was wrong. That's, that's not right. There, that's the only real thing that ah-

INT: And you said the time was wrong, too, you thought-

Chop : The what?

INT: The time.

Chop : Yeah, the, of course, that's because of the flight. The first flight came over- . Ah, in fact, I called the command post, and told them what we were getting. And what Andrews Air Force base was getting on radar. And they said they were sending up a, a flight. And that first flight came about 2 o'clock in the morning, and they saw nothing. Ah, the second flight was about 3:30, between 3:30 and 4, and that's when the action happened. So in that, that is this last copy or are they disc?

INT: I'm, I'm not sure on that book. I'm not-

Chop : Pardon?

INT: I'm not sure on that book.

Chop : Yeah. I don't know.

INT: Oh. Where there's going to be, I mean concerning the new book, that will be corrected.

Chop : Yeah. Okay.

INT: Yeah. So we think there will be a revision, yeah.

Chop : Yeah. I think you did a hell of a job! You really did. Mike's a very good writer, and ah, both of what's he got is absolutely accurate.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : You did a good job. Er, not his fault that he's got that stuff a little screwed up.

INT: Yeah.

Chop : As a matter of fact, ah, one of those flights, Dewey was out of the room when it happened. I think that was one that Lt. Paterson was involved in. He was on the phone in another office talking to Bob Ginna. So-

INT: Off camera, you made the, the comment that the, what happened during that interception was the scariest thing that ever happened to you in your whole life.

Chop : Sure. Let's, let's say I wasn't scared, I was apprehensive. Damn apprehensive! Um, and maybe a little frightened! Because I didn't know what was going to happen! And, and I could see what was going on on the radar scope. So ah, everybody was silent, and we're just listening to Barnes vectoring the plane around the different areas. And then having Patterson say he saw these objects: "I see them, and I'm moving in for a better look. " And then ah, "They're all around me. What shall I do?" You know, what would you tell him? Take two aspirins and call me in the morning? Hmm?

INT: I mean, what were people talking about at the time? I mean, were people thinking that, that this is it? That this is gonna be the first, you know, sort of contact situation?

Chop : Yeah.

INT: Or an attack?

Chop : Could be!

INT: Or an attack?

Chop : Pardon?

INT: Did they think it might be an attack?

Chop : No, no. No they didn't. No. There was no, nothing like that. I don't think anybody was frightened we're going to have an attack. It was just that it was the first time in any of our lives who were there who, you know, be witnesses an intercept. And, and, a near contact. I don't know. I know, I know it bothers me a lot. And I went away from there convinced that the-, there's some real objects up there that we have no answers for. I think the Air Force had, actually had information. They released it. I, there's nobody in the Air Force that's trying to pull anything over on the public. They just don't have the information. They, they'd be in a hell of a position to say "we think there's a spacecraft from another planet. " And they say-

INT: There is nothing we can do about it.

Chop : Yeah. They say, ah, why don't you do something about it? Or what are you going to do? They got no answers.

INT: No. So you think that accounts for the situation up until today?

Chop : Do I what?

INT: Do you think that accounts for the situation, until today?

Chop : I think if the Air Force had more information, they'd release it to the public. I don't think anybody in the Air Force is trying to hide anything. Ah, they just don't have the information.

INT: Mm-hmm. So what do you think about Keyhoe's life-long, ah, criticism of the Air Force entitlement information?

Chop : I don't know. He's ah, I often, often talked to Don about that. I've tried to convince him that he had-, we were giving him all the information we could. That the-, when he asked for something, we, we'd given him everything we had, and we weren't hiding anything. But he was- . I could never convince him of that. I think he probably part of the time, I think, he didn't want to believe that! That the Air Force was not hiding something. Because it made more of a book for him! (laughter) to accuse the Air Force.

INT: Did you think he was -, it was ah, just an aspect of his personality that maybe he was a little paranoid or something like that? I mean-

Chop : No, Donald was a pretty, pretty straightforward person. He was just convinced was that UFOs were from another planet. And by golly, he was going to prove it! That's all despite what the Air Force had to say. He always thought we were covering things up. In fact, he accused me of that a lot of times, "You just don't want to put out the information. "

INT: How often did you see him in your office?

Chop : I'd say he was there at least three times a week.

INT: Three times a week. (laughter)

Chop : At least! Well, he spent 100% of his time on the subject. And-

INT: When would he show up? You'd come in the morning and he'll be there?

Chop : Well, several times he'd be sitting in my chair, waiting for me! (laughter) I was supposed to come in at 8 o'clock, and he'd be there!

INT: Yeah.

Chop : Other times he called and asked if, if he can come in.

INT: Yeah. When you resigned from the N.I.C.A.P. , were you aware that Keyhoe and N.I.C.A.P. were pushing for Congressional investigation of the Air Force mi-

Chop : I know N.I.-, N.I.C.A.P. was. I didn't want to get in, any further involved with N.I.C.A.P. because I was with NASA. And I didn't want people like Keyhoe to try to put 2 and 2 together and say NASA is involved with UFOs. (laughter) and, and so I, I wrote a letter to them and told them why.

INT: Well, did he come back and say, "Al, this is a bad time because, you know, other board members are thinking of resigning and Air Force can use it against N.I.C.A.P." Did he tell you that? Or-

Chop : No. No. Nobody said anything. I don't think they ever responded to my letter.

INT: Oh!

Chop : Um.

INT: Admiral Hillenkoetter also resigned.

Chop : Who?

INT: Admiral Hillenkoetter, the-

Chop : Yeah.

INT: Former CIA Director, friend of Keyhoe-

Chop : Yeah.

INT: -resigned suddenly from N.I.C.A.P. in February, '62.

Chop : He did?

INT: And Don apparently felt that was a big blow to him.

Chop : Whatever happened to Don?

INT: Well, I think he died several years ago.

Chop : I don't know. See, I -- nobody ever told me -- I often wondered what happened to him.

Int. : In Alexandria, yeah.

Chop : He passed on?

Int. : Oui. Oui.

Chop : He must've been pretty old?

Int. : Yeah, close to, ah, well over ninety.

Chop : Yeah, he was. I was - . I kind of liked Don. Don was straightforward and except that he had this bug in his ear that the Air Force was keeping things from him and everybody else! And ah, there's going to be spacecraft bombing the earth one of these days! (laughter) That's the only thing I can say, that I was very skeptical of Don for that reason. Just ah, he was sold 100% on UFOs from outer space.

Int. : That was his second book, wasn't it?

Chop : Oui, oui.

Int. : After, after UFOs Are Real, then, you know, Flying Saucers Are Real, then Flying Saucers From Outer Space. Yeah, yeah.

Chop : Well, I hope I've been helpful to somebody.

Int. : I think you have been very helpful. Yeah, no question about it. I'd like to ask you about Roswell? What do you think about Roswell? I know that you only picked up information in recent-

Chop : Roswell ?

Int. : Yeah, Roswell.

Chop : Oh, like I say, I never was privy to anything that didn't appear in the newspapers. Ah, I couldn't find anything about it in the files, although I looked. And nobody ever discussed the subject with me. I didn't even discuss this with Dewey, I don't think. I'm not sure Dewey knew anything about it. I read about it, and it--

Interview pour histoire orale avec Albert M. Chop